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davidk 
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 Topic: Mothers of Invention VS. King Crimson
Posted: January 19 2011 at 12:05 |
I am new on here and I have always had a love for progressive rock ever since I have discovered it. I have searched and do not see a single forum about this so I decided to add it. King Crimson is described by many people as the first progressive rock band. By the time In The Court of The Crimson King was released it was like no other band had ever done before. However, Frank Zappa & The Mothers of Invention had already been hugely experimental, and mixing jazz, and classical music with rock for quite a few years already. Many of his music before ITCOTCK would be described as progressive rock also, and in my opinion it is. I believe Zappa was more essential in the birth of progressive rock. Especially since on the same date as ITCOTCK came out Zappa released his seventh album. Zappa also very similar to King Crimson whereas he never stopped experimenting and changing his sound, and had numerous different band members and he was the only constant member just like Fripp for King Crimson. Who do you think was really the first "true" Progressive Artist and who is better.
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The Quiet One
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Posted: January 19 2011 at 12:10 |
I agree that Zappa was doing Prog before many others in a very unique way, but it wasn't the Prog that became famous in the 70s. Most of the classic 70s Prog bands weren't influenced by Zappa's experimental stuff, if not Crimson's In the Court of the Crimson King with multi-part songs and mellotron.
Better? Ah, I prefer Zappa.
By the way, it's funny you just posted this since yesterday evening I was playing with my dad bits of Uncle Meat and saying how ahead of his time he was.
Edited by The Quiet One - January 19 2011 at 12:11
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davidk
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Posted: January 19 2011 at 12:14 |
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I agree that is wasn't entirely the same, but Zappa both started the mix of classical music with rock music in the first place. Also, he influenced The Beatles with Freak Out, which I am pretty sure The Beatles had quite a huge influence on a lot of these prog bands.
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davidk
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Posted: January 19 2011 at 12:15 |
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I own Uncle Meat amazing album I am lucky to have found out about Zappa none of my parents ever listened to him or even really knew who he was for that matter except a weirdo who gave his kids very odd names. lol
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harmonium.ro
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Posted: January 19 2011 at 12:17 |
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I don't know any influence that Zappa might have had on the development of early prog. That doesn't mean there isn't any, just that I don't know it. As far as I know, KC got their influences from Beatles, Moody Blues, British folk and psychedelic pop. ELP and YES were strongly influenced by late 60s organ-lead rock such as The Nice and 1-2-3/Clouds. Soft Machine steamed from the British psychedelic pop/rock scene. Maybe they? I think they did a tour in the States in the late 60s, but I'm not sure. Also, I have no idea what were the influences of Gentle Giant, except that they morphed into a prog band from a blues-rock band. Tull were also blues-based.
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davidk
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Posted: January 19 2011 at 12:20 |
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I know he had a huge influence on the progress of The Beatles that Paul had later admitted, but I haven't heard to many bands actually give him credit from the early prog ones. I just would have to admit what Frank was doing before anyone else was very progressive save for the early middle eastern influences The Beatles incorporated on a few albums before Sgt. peppers.
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Evolver
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Posted: January 19 2011 at 13:25 |
 harmonium.ro wrote:
I don't know any influence that Zappa might have had on the development of early prog. That doesn't mean there isn't any, just that I don't know it. As far as I know, KC got their influences from Beatles, Moody Blues, British folk and psychedelic pop. ELP and YES were strongly influenced by late 60s organ-lead rock such as The Nice and 1-2-3/Clouds. Soft Machine steamed from the British psychedelic pop/rock scene. Maybe they? I think they did a tour in the States in the late 60s, but I'm not sure. Also, I have no idea what were the influences of Gentle Giant, except that they morphed into a prog band from a blues-rock band. Tull were also blues-based. |
Keith Emerson's "Off The Shelf" compilation CD has a recording of The Nice playing an excerpt from "Lumpy Gravy" on a rodio show. I presume that indicates some sort of influence.
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davidk
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Posted: January 19 2011 at 13:56 |
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That definitely shows the influence since Emerson Lake and Palmer would go on to create most of their albums based around types of Classical music. Lumpy Gravy is one of Zappa's most classical style pieces.
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Prog Geo
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Posted: January 19 2011 at 16:26 |
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Well,if you take the chronological order,Frank Zappa is the first progressive artist.But King crimson(after The beatles) begins the progressive rock as we know it.Anyways,I prefer King crimson more than Zappa.
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zravkapt
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Posted: January 19 2011 at 16:41 |
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Zappa was doing progressive rock before King Crimson even existed. His influence is wide. You can hear it in many avant-prog, Canterbury and fusion groups.
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npjnpj
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Posted: January 20 2011 at 05:31 |
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Although I'm a big Zappa fan and although I agree that he was creating progressive-type music before KC, I think that without ItCotCK not many people would be listening to it.
If you want, ItCotCK was the boost that enabled everyone including Zappa to shed their anonymity.
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Floydman
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 11:47 |
davidk wrote:
I am new on here and I have always had a love for progressive rock ever since I have discovered it. I have searched and do not see a single forum about this so I decided to add it. King Crimson is described by many people as the first progressive rock band. By the time In The Court of The Crimson King was released it was like no other band had ever done before. However, Frank Zappa & The Mothers of Invention had already been hugely experimental, and mixing jazz, and classical music with rock for quite a few years already. Many of his music before ITCOTCK would be described as progressive rock also, and in my opinion it is. I believe Zappa was more essential in the birth of progressive rock. Especially since on the same date as ITCOTCK came out Zappa released his seventh album. Zappa also very similar to King Crimson whereas he never stopped experimenting and changing his sound, and had numerous different band members and he was the only constant member just like Fripp for King Crimson.
Who do you think was really the first "true" Progressive Artist and who is better. |
I would argue the Beatles, Jimi Hendrix, and Brian Wilson were more essential to prog than Frank Zappa. No one band is solely responsible for it's creation. Frank Zappa was a musical heavyweight but I don't think his music was overtly prog well especially on the first two albums. Frank innovations consisted of merging Edgar Varese into doo-wop, blues, rock, classical and jazz you name it. He used musique concrete techniques and tape manipulation also into his mix. He does sound unique but I honestly think he was more interested in being composer rather than writing tunes which the Beatles, Hendrix and Brian Wilson were able to convey their music to a larger audience..
Robert Fripp has stated many times the Beatles "A Day in the Life" very prog related was the reason he went into rock music. Now the Beatles weren't overtly prog except for a few songs that can be debated. The Beatles were progressive, the most popular, and great songwriters. You can combine that and you can see why the Beatles basically influenced every rock artist at the time. By experimenting with classical orchestration with rock stylings, musique concrete, backward music and vocals, sampled looped noises, ambient sounds by the use of looping, various timbre on vocal, instruments, Indian instruments, their use of delay and switching time, mellotron all to create to intentionally what they thought the psychedelic experience should sound on record. That type of approach was different than say Phil Spector or the Byrds, and Yardbirds style of eastern influenced guitars with rock. There was nothing that sounded like Revolver that preceded it. That type of experimentation even influenced people in other genres like Stevie Wonder, George Clinton, etc.
Also, Jimi Hendrix blew barriers with his guitar playing by reinveting the rock guitar sound with his virtouso use of electronics and studio techniques.
Edited by Floydman - January 21 2011 at 12:04
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darkshade
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 12:47 |
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the only 70s bands/artists i hear FZ's influence in is funk bands, of all bands. P-Funk, James Brown, and a few jazz-funk bands of the time. Mostly in the horn arrangements and timbre, and maybe a quick line or something. Also the fact that George Clinton & company, and James Brown liked to talk during the music, or narrate in a way Zappa did. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?
i find Zappa's influence can be heard more in modern (post '89 Walter!) rock, jazz, and prog bands. Bands like Dream Theater, Phish, The Flower Kings, Spock's Beard, Transatlantic, Beardfish, R&L Project, etc... Even jazz bands and contemporary rock bands cite FZ as influences. System of a Down comes to mind right away, and i know some jazz guys love Zappa, i just cant think of any at the moment, except Garaj Mahal
I prefer Zappa, but of course i love KC/Fripp
Edited by darkshade - January 21 2011 at 12:53
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zravkapt
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 13:29 |
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Please explain how Zappa influenced James Brown.
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The Quiet One
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 13:32 |
zravkapt wrote:
Please explain how Zappa influenced James Brown. |
 Yeah.
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darkshade
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Posted: January 21 2011 at 13:38 |
i said in my initial post that only the sound of Brown's horn line sound influenced. His studio albums had a certain sound before 1973, and by then his horn line's sound reminiscent of Zappa's; again, in sound and timbre only. 1972 and 1973 saw FZ move into a more jazz-fusion sound, with the horns upfront. JB's albums had that sound starting after 1973. i dont know for a fact that FZ influenced JB, but what i just said cannot just be a coincidence. As far as Parliament/Funkadelic, George Clinton and company are known to be Zappa fans. P-Funk teased "I'm The Slime" when i saw them back in July last year. don't kill me  
Edited by darkshade - January 21 2011 at 13:39
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autumnekramer
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Posted: January 31 2011 at 12:48 |
although i love Zappa especially the song Cosmic Debris and agree he was doing stuff before Crimson i would have to say that since Crimson is so...unique i they are each one of a kind. 
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brainstormer
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Posted: February 17 2011 at 23:13 |
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I have to say that I admire Zappa more as a composer. Fripp let me down a bunch after he reformed Crimson around 1979. It's obviously technical prog but it doesn't have the same spirit as the early Crimson.
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himtroy
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Posted: February 17 2011 at 23:39 |
I SERIOUSLY DON'T UNDERSTAND THE CONSTANT WHAT IS THE FIRST PROG!!!
Yeah that was big, but seriously people. How haven't music fans realized yet that 1) It's music, there was no first of this, last of that... and 2) If you look at things like classical and jazz you could find ANYTHING that quantifies progressive music. Therefore it'd be very hard to point towards a specific individual. And if you ever found someone, they're just progressing from those before them, who would in actuality then be the first, but then theres those before them who would actually be the first........going nowhere....
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himtroy
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Posted: February 17 2011 at 23:42 |
darkshade wrote:
the only 70s bands/artists i hear FZ's influence in is funk bands, of all bands. P-Funk, James Brown, and a few jazz-funk bands of the time. Mostly in the horn arrangements and timbre, and maybe a quick line or something. Also the fact that George Clinton & company, and James Brown liked to talk during the music, or narrate in a way Zappa did. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?
i find Zappa's influence can be heard more in modern (post '89 Walter!) rock, jazz, and prog bands. Bands like Dream Theater, Phish, The Flower Kings, Spock's Beard, Transatlantic, Beardfish, R&L Project, etc... Even jazz bands and contemporary rock bands cite FZ as influences. System of a Down comes to mind right away, and i know some jazz guys love Zappa, i just cant think of any at the moment, except Garaj Mahal
I prefer Zappa, but of course i love KC/Fripp
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Really? I think the jazzier side of prog had a lot of Zappa influence in the 70's. Many acid jazzier sides of prog groups (some canterbury) seemed to reflect Zappa's mark. On top of this relatively the entire Finish prog scene of the time was VERY Zappa influenced, such as Samla Mamma's Manna, Jukka Tolonen (all incarnations), Pekka Pohjola, and Tasavallian Presidentti.
You're definitely dead on about Phish. They're also very acknowledged Zappa fans. (they do a fantastic Peaches en Regalia)
Edited by himtroy - February 17 2011 at 23:45
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Which of you to gain me, tell, will risk uncertain pains of hell?
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Mothers of Invention VS. King Crimson
