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Topic ClosedLibertarian Thread #2: We Shall Never Die!
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2011 at 13:18
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

 
And, related, we all agree some land acquisition has been done rather suspiciously, fraudulentally in the past. That people who acquired the land by force or fraud (thus violating liberty and property rights) inherited the land to their heirs generations ago and now these heirs are benefiting from that, while other people have to, in a way, start from zero. Isn't that an unjust start for a society where property would have quite a great value? It's just a concern, I no longer advocate any confiscation or land redistribution. But we can tie to to the previous question. How does free land get acquired then?

Most philosophical issues have always been in my head. I never wanted control of any kind. I see now how it's pure psychology that keeps one bound to the idea of the big god/nanny/mommy/state that takes some responsibility off your shoulders in exchange for most every decision making that might actually improve your(and your loved ones, and in consequence everybody related inone way or another) life...

Free land is just claimed by a person. Not by sticking a flag on it, but by actually using it. I'm a big believer in homesteading.  Like when you consumer water from a stream, that water was unclaimed. You used the resource. It is your water. 

I pretty much agree with your second idea. I would say it's also a power structure desired by the winners and deliberately sold to the peons. 



Edited by Equality 7-2521 - January 16 2011 at 13:19
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2011 at 13:19
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

What is not owned privately comes under the bureau of land management

I don't give a sh*t for what they own.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2011 at 13:32
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

gay marriage (please don't tell me a Libertarian must be in favor of either of these, because as I've shown before, that isn't the case at all)

I really disagree with this. I don't see how a libertarian can be for State granted marriages. Therefore, any institution would be able to grant it's own 'marriage' label whatever that is, be it religious or merely a secular distinction, and gay marriage could not be prevented by a libertarian. 

Unless by against gay marriage you simply mean personal feelings against gays marrying, of course a libertarian can be against it in that way.


Did I say I was in favor of state-granted marriages?

In that case how are you against gay marriage?


I've explained it before several months ago.  Suffice it to say that if the government wasn't involved in marriage, this wouldn't be an issue at all (I primarily object to gay "marriage" on biblical grounds- just as I would have a problem with a divorced man pastoring a church).
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Points: 5319 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2011 at 13:32
I care. Every year we go for the annual bird migration at Malheur National wildlife refuge. I am thankful these areas are set aside for the protection of sandhill cranes and many other birds. It is not a perfect system but it is better than nothing.
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2011 at 13:37
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

gay marriage (please don't tell me a Libertarian must be in favor of either of these, because as I've shown before, that isn't the case at all)

I really disagree with this. I don't see how a libertarian can be for State granted marriages. Therefore, any institution would be able to grant it's own 'marriage' label whatever that is, be it religious or merely a secular distinction, and gay marriage could not be prevented by a libertarian. 

Unless by against gay marriage you simply mean personal feelings against gays marrying, of course a libertarian can be against it in that way.


Did I say I was in favor of state-granted marriages?

In that case how are you against gay marriage?


I've explained it before several months ago.  Suffice it to say that if the government wasn't involved in marriage, this wouldn't be an issue at all (I primarily object to gay "marriage" on biblical grounds- just as I would have a problem with a divorced man pastoring a church).

I agree. So you're personally against it. Which is what I said in the second part of my post.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2011 at 13:38
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

I care. Every year we go for the annual bird migration at Malheur National wildlife refuge. I am thankful these areas are set aside for the protection of sandhill cranes and many other birds. It is not a perfect system but it is better than nothing.

Yes when government actions benefit someone they usually do like them.
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2011 at 13:40
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

gay marriage (please don't tell me a Libertarian must be in favor of either of these, because as I've shown before, that isn't the case at all)

I really disagree with this. I don't see how a libertarian can be for State granted marriages. Therefore, any institution would be able to grant it's own 'marriage' label whatever that is, be it religious or merely a secular distinction, and gay marriage could not be prevented by a libertarian. 

Unless by against gay marriage you simply mean personal feelings against gays marrying, of course a libertarian can be against it in that way.


Did I say I was in favor of state-granted marriages?

In that case how are you against gay marriage?


I've explained it before several months ago.  Suffice it to say that if the government wasn't involved in marriage, this wouldn't be an issue at all (I primarily object to gay "marriage" on biblical grounds- just as I would have a problem with a divorced man pastoring a church).

I agree. So you're personally against it. Which is what I said in the second part of my post.


Good thing words are a renewable resource.  LOL
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Points: 5319 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2011 at 13:42
The main benefit is the protection of fragile eco systems which allow the bird to maintain their flyways. 
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2011 at 13:43
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

gay marriage (please don't tell me a Libertarian must be in favor of either of these, because as I've shown before, that isn't the case at all)

I really disagree with this. I don't see how a libertarian can be for State granted marriages. Therefore, any institution would be able to grant it's own 'marriage' label whatever that is, be it religious or merely a secular distinction, and gay marriage could not be prevented by a libertarian. 

Unless by against gay marriage you simply mean personal feelings against gays marrying, of course a libertarian can be against it in that way.


Did I say I was in favor of state-granted marriages?

In that case how are you against gay marriage?


I've explained it before several months ago.  Suffice it to say that if the government wasn't involved in marriage, this wouldn't be an issue at all (I primarily object to gay "marriage" on biblical grounds- just as I would have a problem with a divorced man pastoring a church).

I agree. So you're personally against it. Which is what I said in the second part of my post.


Good thing words are a renewable resource.  LOL

But we increased our carbon footprint nonetheless Cry
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2011 at 13:43
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

The main benefit is the protection of fragile eco systems which allow the bird to maintain their flyways. 

And of course this has been shown to be more beneficial for everyone than all alternative uses of the land.

Oh wait...
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Points: 5319 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2011 at 13:54
All life is sacred and if you could realize by stepping outside yourself the interconnectedness of all life then perhaps you would have a respect for the efforts being made to preserve a natural balance. We are talking about natural wetlands which even if drained would not be productive for food crops. Maybe you should actually know about Malheur before making stupid remarks.
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2011 at 13:58
So you agree then that the land could potentially be put to much better use? Thank you.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 5319 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2011 at 14:05
No I never agreed to that ,stay in philly please, I will think of you on this springs trip stuck in your city with your city mentality while I am enjoying the pristine beauty of Malheur
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Points: 5319 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2011 at 14:06
thanks


Edited by timothy leary - January 16 2011 at 14:07
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2011 at 14:10
Yah my city mentality that says land shouldn't be stolen from people, set aside for nature, maintained by stealing money, especially when the resources on the land could make life better or save life for human beings.

Clearly this means I don't like nature. I hate it. When I go camping I always do so to urbanize the great outdoors. It's my life's mission.
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Points: 5319 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2011 at 14:16
probably
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2011 at 14:19
Cool opinions bro.
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2011 at 14:23
Time for my biggest philosophical problem with libertarianism but one which probably is rather minor as it's, let's say, not human related. Animal rights. Under a strict libertarian society could we really make whatever we want with other forms of life which, in my view (and this will never change since it's onw of the few ideas that have a stronghold on my belief system since childhood) have the same right as us humans to life. I was very concerned until I found this article. I fully agree with it.
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2011 at 14:30
The link isn't working T.

I don't think we can in any serious way extend a structure of rights to animals equivalent to that of humans.

I don't see animal abuse as immoral myself. I see it as deranged behavior and it's not behavior I support, but I don't go as far to call it immoral. Not a popular opinion, I'm aware.

I would remind you that societal action is probably more fair and efficient than governmental action. Don't buy from industries that abuse animals. Don't see the guy raising pitbulls to fight any pitbulls. Of course, if someone harms your animal, a animals as property view would clearly prevent this kind of behavior.

Taking a David Friedman approach to a free market legal system though, you would have competing companies determining the law. Thus if enough people wanted a system of animals rights, it would arise on the free market. Though I would think this would be rare. Many people want animal's rights protected, but few are willing to pay to do so.
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2011 at 14:31
T, I didn't know you were a vegetarian.
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