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Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
Topic: The Health Improvement Thread Posted: January 08 2011 at 05:55
Last year I started a thread about low-carb. Since then I've read many more books about nutrition and exercise ... and even though I'm mainly discussing these topics in other forums, but I remember from last year that some people here were interested in them, as they're perhaps the most important topics overall. Who doesn't want to be healthy? Well, there may be some who are frustrated with nutritional advice and think that nobody knows anything really. I would disagree ... granted, there are many conflicting theories, but we can analyze them, or try them and see if they work, and then reach conclusions about what works, and what doesn't.
Here's a list of strategies:
Eat less, exercise more
Reduce the intake of carbohydrate and sugar
Reduce the intake of sugar but keep carbs unchanged
Reduce the intake of meat and/or dairy
Increase the intake of fiber
Eat more veggies
Replace refined grain products with whole grain products
Supplement with fish oil (Omega 3)
Vegetarianism
Veganism
Eat only meat and/or dairy
Do lots of cardio workouts
Do no cardio workouts, but regular strength training
Do both cardio workouts and strength training
Currently my interest lies mainly in the first two - those are the main conflicting theories. When people are overweight or even obese, they have all these options. We might start by asking "what does common wisdom tell us?". As it turns out, today common wisdom tells us to eat less and exercise more, but until the 1970s it used to say "reduce starches (carbohydrate) and sugars". The latter is today called the low-carb approach, and it is what I have found, after reading 25+ books on dieting and exercise and having successfully tried it myself last year, to be the only approach that works.
Now, I know that you can lose weight by many different means - I'm not saying that low-carb is the only one. But you don't only want to lose weight. The task is to change your body composition permanently. That means losing fat, preserving or even increasing lean tissue (muscle/bones/organs), and maintaining that effect indefinitely. In addition to all that you also want your health to improve. Statistically that is already implied, because statistics show that having a lean body is correlated with lower incidence of diseases like cancer, diabetes, gout, alzheimers, CVD and so on. But you'll typically also want your health markers to show that you're, well, healthy. That means blood pressure, resting heart rate, blood glucose/insulin, LDL (and LDL type/particle size), HDL and triglycerides. As it turns out, eating a diet that's high in fat but low in carbs can achieve all that. It somewhat depends on which types of fats you eat, but the list of healthy fats includes saturated fat, and particularly animal fat such as lard.
So - what are your opinions? Please don't hesitate to post them - I will try to do my best to offer counterarguments when I think that a statement is wrong, but I'll try to make sure that I'm not just "religiously" defending the low-carb position.
EDIT: I just found a video on You-Tube that's perfect for posting here. I agree with everything in it, it's representative of my position - except maybe when it comes to the carbs-insulin connection, which is IMO too simplistic as an explanation. At the same time it's quite entertaining, and I encourage you to give it a try ... you can still turn it off after a few minutes if you don't like it. For those who know me from the atheism thread(s): I guarantee that there's no atheist/religion angle in it - and neither is belief in evolution or paleolithic ancestors required.
BTW: Feel free to suggest other videos - not just those that agree with what I currently think to be true, but of course also contrary views. I'll be happy to watch and/or include them here, and after all, I did not create this thread simply to present or promote low-carb, but to discuss whether it's what I think it is: The only truly effective solution to the problem of obesity and diabetes, because it corrects the cause of the problem rather than working on the symptoms.
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65549
Posted: January 08 2011 at 06:11
eat less for sure, you don't need more than 1 to 2 nutritious meals a day -- I'm not up on 'losing weight', more into strength, power and flexibility; however I have found that if you're exercising regularly you can eat more of what you want
anyway, find an activity you like and PUNCH IT ! Then you can eat cheeseburgers or ice cream or whatever
..and here comes Mike to argue, but I don't care cause I teach martial arts and Pilates for a living
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20403
Posted: January 08 2011 at 06:11
Hey Mike....
this has become a bigger obsession than your progmetal and prograting manias
Has this weight thing become such an issue for you???... or you've become a health nut and would like to convert everyone to your new "religion"???
---------------
I mean, yeah, I'm overweight, but it's not an issue in my health (yet, anyway) or my charms (never an obstacle, unless she's maniacal, but that means she's not worth it)....
soooooo if I try to control it (a bit), I'm not going to force myself either....
life is short..... way too short not to have a good one filled all of the earthly pleasures.....
I'd rather live 50 (gee, that's only three years away, now) and die quickly and pailessly) and live out 100% pleasure than live to be 85 and only live 50% with no pleasures....
stop worrying about this and enjoy food.... it's good for you.... (morally anyway)
let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
Posted: January 08 2011 at 06:35
Hugues,
I'm not here to convert anyone, but I'm certainly here to argue - that's what I enjoy the most.
I'm currently still 20kg overweight, and I already lost about 20kg. I now weigh in at 98kg at 180cm height, which puts my BMI barely in the "obese" range. That's not very accurate, since I've gained a lot of muscle/strength last year, and the more muscle you have, the less the BMI applies.
I've found a way to keep enjoying food and at the same time lose weight, improve health markers and gain strength. It's not at all like you say ("live out 100% pleasure than live to be 85 and only live 50% with no pleasures") ... those aren't the only two options. I'd rather live to be 100 and still have my health then. Sounds unlikely? Maybe it is, but the point is: Many people think that in order to improve their health they have to make big sacrifices. Giving up bread or pasta is a big sacrifice to some, but you're not only getting health benefits in return, but also other food choices that are, at least to me, equally satisfying. So to me it seems more like a trade than a sacrifice.
BTW: I'm currently 35 years old - and while I have some general (economic) concerns about what my life will be like when I'm 50 years old, I know that I want to avoid diabetes. And if you're overweight or even obese, there's a good chance that you'll become diabetic, and your risk for CVD, cancer and dementia will skyrocket. I'd find it cool to die of old age instead. The beauty part about low-carb is that you get all the benefits with minimal sacrifice.
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
Posted: January 08 2011 at 06:40
Atavachron wrote:
eat less for sure, you don't need more than 1 to 2 nutritious meals a day -- I'm not up on 'losing weight', more into strength, power and flexibility; however I have found that if you're exercising regularly you can eat more of what you want
anyway, find an activity you like and PUNCH IT ! Then you can eat cheeseburgers or ice cream or whatever
..and here comes Mike to argue, but I don't care cause I teach martial arts and Pilates for a living
I think this approach works for some - and it surely worked for me until I was about 25 years old. I'd do lots of cycling, volleyball, squash and even some weightlifting. But for some people as time goes by, their bodies start accumulating fat. Some of them try to stave it off by increasing excercise, but it doesn't work. Next time you go for a jog in the park, look at the other joggers - most of them will be overweight.
The problem with increasing exercise is that it also makes you hungrier. That's where the phrase "working up an appetite" comes from.
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
Posted: January 08 2011 at 06:41
Epignosis wrote:
I've dropped 8 pounds in the last month eating Ramen noodles and drinking beer everyday. No lie. And this includes gorging myself on about five holiday meals.
Of course my first question would be: How many noodles, how much beer, what else did you eat and what did you do.
BTW: What became of your low-carb efforts that you mentioned in the previous thread?
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20403
Posted: January 08 2011 at 06:42
^^^
you know Mike.... (geeeeeee, you really sound sooooo... serious)
i know of a few ascetes that set out to live as safely, soundly and healthily as possible and died in car crashes or from colon cancer.... life's unfair.... and there is no garantee you'll see the age of 50.... enjoy life, instead of extend it....
I must run, now,..... I'ver got loads of errants to do for tonight wine & cheese fest (not joking, btw)
BTw; keeping physically active (like using the stars rather than the lift) works and allows food excesses
Edited by Sean Trane - January 08 2011 at 06:45
let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
Posted: January 08 2011 at 06:52
^ I'm way less serious about it than you might think ... and I still think that you can do both at the same time (enjoy life and improve health).
BTW: Wine & cheese fest ... sounds like something that's largely compatible with my strategy. I guess there'll be bread, too ... I'd simply ditch the bread and eat the cheese instead. I'm certainly no ascete.
But like I said in response to Atavachron: For me the strategy of adding physical activity so that I can in return eat junk food ... for me that simply doesn't work anymore. It used to up until I was about 25, but since then attempting to do so has proven to be a vicious cycle, and in the end I simply got fatter.
I have to run, too ... to the gym. I'm going there twice a week, to do a circuit based strength training for about 1 hour. It's really intense, but it really works (increasing strength).
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65549
Posted: January 08 2011 at 06:56
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
eat less for sure, you don't need more than 1 to 2 nutritious meals a day -- I'm not up on 'losing weight', more into strength, power and flexibility; however I have found that if you're exercising regularly you can eat more of what you want
anyway, find an activity you like and PUNCH IT ! Then you can eat cheeseburgers or ice cream or whatever
..and here comes Mike to argue, but I don't care cause I teach martial arts and Pilates for a living
I think this approach works for some - and it surely worked for me until I was about 25 years old. I'd do lots of cycling, volleyball, squash and even some weightlifting. But for some people as time goes by, their bodies start accumulating fat. Some of them try to stave it off by increasing excercise, but it doesn't work. Next time you go for a jog in the park, look at the other joggers - most of them will be overweight.
The problem with increasing exercise is that it also makes you hungrier. That's where the phrase "working up an appetite" comes from.
yes and I shouldn't talk, as I've always burned weight quickly
I've dropped 8 pounds in the last month eating Ramen noodles and drinking beer everyday. No lie. And this includes gorging myself on about five holiday meals.
Of course my first question would be: How many noodles, how much beer, what else did you eat and what did you do.
BTW: What became of your low-carb efforts that you mentioned in the previous thread?
I eat 2 packs of Ramen for lunch (190 calories x 4). However, I use extra water, so the fat of the noodles and much of sodium are drained off (this is done so more because of taste for me than for health reasons).
Beer- my usual 12 or so a day. I also drink about 3 cups of coffee in the morning and about a half a gallon (64oz) of water each day.
I ate breakfast maybe every other day. Usually a couple eggs. For dinner, we eat our usual meals- usually involving chicken or ground beef, rice or beans, tortillas or potatoes, and a vegetable of some sort. I do grill out about twice a week. We indulge in cheese.
Edit: Well, we have not had pizza in two months (and I love pizza- we used to eat it once every two weeks).
What else did I do? Sit at a desk for about 14 hours a day. Sleep 8 hours. The other 2 hours could be spent playing with the kids or watching TV I guess. I haven't exercised once since I moved other than play with the kids.
I did the low-carb thing for about 2 months. I'd say I lost 10 pounds during that time and then severely plateaued. I began a lifting weights, but that did nothing as far as my weight was concerned. Steadily, the weight came back.
Now that I've moved, I've lost 8 pounds in a month and really haven't changed my lifestyle or diet. Maybe it's all this praying I do.
The only thing I can really think of is that it is colder in NC than it is in FL. And it isn't so humid. I sleep better here than I did in FL- I generally feel well rested and my concentration has improved. I think getting better sleep has helped me lost weight.
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
Posted: January 08 2011 at 07:10
Did you only keep track of the weight? You didn't lose or gain substantial amounts, and much of it is due to water retention. Plus when you started lifting weight, you might have been gaining lean body mass - which can mask the weight loss.
You can use a body fat scale to keep track of your body fat percentage - but the easier solution is to track your trousers size. I went down from 42/32 to currently 36/32. Or rather 36/30, which is a bit odd since I definitely didn't grow shorter ... I guess it's how the trousers are cut, and because I've always been somewhere between 30 and 32.
But since you mentioned sleep and sex ... yes, stress (relief) and rest are definitely factors in fat loss.
Did you only keep track of the weight? You didn't lose or gain substantial amounts, and much of it is due to water retention. Plus when you started lifting weight, you might have been gaining lean body mass - which can mask the weight loss.
You can use a body fat scale to keep track of your body fat percentage - but the easier solution is to track your trousers size. I went down from 42/32 to currently 36/32. Or rather 36/30, which is a bit odd since I definitely didn't grow shorter ... I guess it's how the trousers are cut, and because I've always been somewhere between 30 and 32.
But since you mentioned sleep and sex ... yes, stress (relief) and rest are definitely factors in fat loss.
I have a scale that measures water and body fat- no significant changes with either. My pants size is the same, but with my genes (jeans? ), most of the fat is stored in the midsection. My shirts fit a bit better, so I'm guessing that's where much of the loss occurred. I can also detect some slight changes in my face.
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
Posted: January 08 2011 at 07:31
I guess it boils down to how important it is for you to get rid of this belly fat. What you can't easily ignore is that it indeed comes with increased risk of CVD, cancer, diabetes etc.. Sure, many people simply shrug it of and say "well, that's just how it is - you have to die from something", but I think that it's better to do something about it while you can.
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
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Points: 22989
Posted: January 08 2011 at 07:42
I gained wieght (around 10 to maybe 15 extra kilos) in the last years, firstly because of my last year at the job when I was working all day long so my eating and living habits got stronly derailed, and then because of the next two years (until now) when I enjoyed my freedom of not having to do anything by sitting my ass on a chair all day and roaming around the internets. That's embarassing for me, but the good thing is that once I get reintegrated a rutine of daily activity (and I don't want something crazy similar to my last job), I expect an optimization of my over-all health status.
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
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Points: 5195
Posted: January 08 2011 at 07:47
Sedentary behavior ... that ties into the "calories in / calories out" approach (eat less, exercise more). Maybe it will work for you, and increasing activity will automatically make you lean again. If it doesn't, remember this thread.
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
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Points: 20403
Posted: January 08 2011 at 13:07
just thought I'd precise that I'm not a totally insensible SOB 5i (actually I am one, but not these issues) about your plight and angst...; I'm just questionning the vality of your plight...
Given your height and wait, you're not doing bad... (although you're only 35)... I don't think anyone on the street would call you anything more than chubby or slightly fat.... Obesity is when it gets problematic
but you shouldn't get stuck by these miore or less insuling medical terms like "obesity" (as soon as you 5kg overweight by THEIR standards) or "morbid obesity" (more than 20 kg over THEIR aggressive therapy scales, designed to hook you as a client forever.... many doctors like to have too many patients to milk up and are ready to make you panic to get at this goal....
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
BTW: Wine & cheese fest ... sounds like something that's largely compatible with my strategy. I guess there'll be bread, too ... I'd simply ditch the bread and eat the cheese instead. I'm certainly no ascete.
Well i've got some Brie De Meaux, some Vacherin (the french, not the swiss), some Abondance (a bit softer taste Appenzeller), some Bleu des Causses (very close to Roquefort, but with raw milk for added taste), some goat cheese (a fairly fresh Selle sur Cher and a matured St-Maure), somevery "stinky" Epoisses and some Munster (Alsace) and some 18-months Laguiolle (like the cheese knfe) which is a sort of Cantal (crumbly like a cheddar)
They're all on my Schist-slate cheese plate, gaining the right temperature (expecting the buddies in some 20 minutes)
I'm serving the Baguette au levain breads....
Wines: I've got some red un-filtered Chinon (Loire Valley) from 95 (waiting in the decanter) for the brie and the matured goat cheese, some white Muscadet Sur Lie (Loire valley) (for the vacherin and the fresh goat cheese), then I've got some Givry (Bourgogne) from 96 for the Epoisse (this is one of the big classic) and some GewurtzStraminer to accompany Alsace's munster
for those wanting to try Belgian's Herve cheese with carry seeds and some Chimay trappist.... it'll be available as well.
i've also got some white liquoreux Quart De Chaume (again LMoire Valley) for the blue cheese
Fine dark origin chocolate and 21-yr old Macallan single malt... then some finelly matured Jamaican Lamb's bread ganja
.... that should amount to some 3500Kcal minimum per person.... (surely the women will stop at 2000Kcal)
Tangerine Dream on the stereo, then probably Miles, Soft Machine and we'll see for the rest....
well gotta run.... to the kitchen
let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20403
Posted: January 08 2011 at 14:39
lucas wrote:
^
Hugues,
I am impressed with your knowledge of french wines and cheese.
And yes, french wines and cheeses are awesome !
are there any other kind of wine & cheese than french????
(I know Italians are a very distant second)
I just had to show to my guests this thread in between two cheeses
let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
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The Health Improvement Thread
Topic Options
progmetal and 
prograting manias
) and die quickly and pailessly) and live out 100% pleasure than live to be 85 and only live 50% with no pleasures....
.... it's good for you.... (morally anyway
)
Atavachron wrote:
.... (surely the women will stop at 2000Kcal)