Genesis overrated?

Snow Dog wrote: I got most.

16 for Mr Laz.

Personally, I think Bach is overrated.  Ditto Brahms, Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn and all those "seminal" classical guys.  After all, people like Debussy, Stravinsky, Scriabin and Frescobaldi - to say nothing of Schoenberg, Varese and Stockhausen - are mcuh more progressive.

peter gabriel era is some of the most interesting and complicated music i've ever heard!    I'm looking forward to checking out the musical box if they come to the midwest in 2011.

Mmmm.... some reasons why I love Genesis?

Gerinski wrote: Mmmm.... some reasons why I love Genesis?   Unlike many other band who drew mostly from rock and jazz stylism, early Genesis used many more classical elements in their choice of key changes, chord progressions and soloing lines. Banks arpeggios were very much derived from classical music.   Hackett guitar lines were extremely original for its time, neither based directly on rock neither in jazz, also a lot of classical stuff in there but translated to an electric way.   Their use of acoustic and 12-string guitars was also delightful, some here have suggested that it made them "folk" but that's nonsense, folk guitar is based on strung patterns or at most simple arpeggios, while Genesis used harmonic complex arpeggios much more inspired in classical music. Rutherford and Hackett (with some help from Banks) did agreat job at the guitars but I have always thought that it was a real pitty that Anthony Phillips left, we can only guess what superb music might have come had he stayed with the band (together with Hackett I mean).   OK you don't like Collin's drumming but to me he was great again for similar reasons, not a rock drummer and yet not a typical jazz-rock drummer either, a wonderful compromise in between with a lot of subtle touches and (I agree with Moshkito here) very loose, not metronomic at all.   Rutherford... no need saying much, amazing bass and very good with the Moog Taurus bass pedals even if sometimes a bit unnoticed due to the production.   Another thing I love is the theatrical feel of many of their songs, they don't just talk about something, they tell tales, much as if you were reading a book of short stories or short theater plays.   Then there's that english victorian feel, I'm not english but for some reason I love that feel.   And I can not get how can you consider them "bland", with songs such as The Return of the Giant Hogweed, Get'em Out by Friday, The Musical Box.... if this is bland I don't know what kind of ears do you have.   Finally, "Can you tell me where my country lies, said the unifaun to his true love's eyes... It lies with me, cried the Queen of Maybe, for her merchandise, he traded in his prize... " If you are not moved by this opening I can't help you explain why   By the way maybe it would help if you said which other bands do you like and why? of course there's no reason why you must like Genesis.

A very insightful post certainly but I really think the cited 'classical music influence' re Genesis is vastly overstated. Yes, I can hear the academic orthodoxy in much of Banks playing style but in the main, Genesis compositions from Trespass up to and including Trick of the Tail contain very little formal symphonic writing c/f something like say, Karn Evil 9 by ELP which states, develops and treats thematic material in a very similar way to composers like Richard Strauss, Liszt, Sibelius etc
Even the harmonic territory that Genesis usually inhabit betrays their origins as that of pastoral folk/rock, liturgical church hymns and time honoured tin pan alley song-craft
(albeit of a very sophisticated and refined type)

BTW I love early Genesis but have always felt they are only tenuously classically fashioned. Similarly, Yes are often credited with classical leanings, but for me that's also well wide of the mark. Perhaps our wish to have our favourite bands taken seriously from outside the popular music realm engenders this rather fanciful delusion of 'formal academic rigour' etc

^ Yep we are in the same ball park on that one as one of the most attractive things about Genesis is their abandonment of traditional blues and rock harmony/scales which does lend their music a refreshing erm...quaintness (of a good kind)

I admit I probably jumped the gun and read symphonic where you wrote classical (the former ain't what you meant)

Chris S wrote: These videos are fanbased surely?

That's what I'm thinking now.  They weren't on the compilation DVD.  They were well done though and appear to be official videos with the opening title at the bottom.

I'll just give in my two cents on why I like the band.

I'll start off with: Genesis is a flawed band, that is for sure. Gabriel's vocals, especially in the early years are quite weak - not that he is a bad singer, he just doesn't have a very strong voice and the style he tries to achieve with it even puts an emphasis on that.
Hackett's unique and always lovely guitar playing often got downgraded. Especially in the later years, when Tony Banks took over the role of the lead instruments with his synthesizers almost completely.
Their music left little space for improvisation and spontaneity, which is something I've always thought would improve their style.
The compositions, on their own, are not exactly adventurous in style in the context of some things that were going on at their time in "popular" music.

However, what I always find interesting about them is their prowess in writing songs with a logical emotional structure and memorable melodies. Some would consider "memorable melodies" as bad in a prog context as "memorable hooks" which is of course a term from the dreaded field of pop music and such is to be shunned, but I disagree: In Genesis' case, it's the melodies and their strength which contributes to the overall strength of the music. That and how they are arranged.

For example, what I love about Hackett's solo in "Dancing With The Moonlit Knight" is that every single phrase he plays there is a melody that fits into the composition as a whole. Not only is that solo a technical achievement, it's also a compositional one and has a stark contrast with the usual improvised pentatonic scale solo of most rock music.

That is, for me, the thriving force behind their music. I would say they are the strongest symphonic progressive rock band from that era in regards to arranging and composing melodies. And obviously that is what they were going for anyway. The band members have stated in various interviews, that they considered themselves songwriters and simply wrote them creatively, not as avant-garde artists who would push the way we think of rock music or music in general.

Another aspect that I do like about them is the lyrical side and how in most of the cases the lyrics reflect the music well. I love the quirky storytelling of Gabriel in songs like "Epping Forest" and "The Musical Box". Even in later times, with Collins, like "Trick of the Tail".

I'd say, however, that in the end, Genesis' (And I  am mainly talking about the early 70-80 Genesis) strength lies with their emotional resonance, that stems from the strong melodic core of their music. This provides you with moments that are instantly memorable and in that are almost classical in nature. Who wouldn't remember the first moments of Firth of Fifth or the first guitar solo from The Musical Box, when the organ enters.
And who are we kidding, their sound is definitely an unique one. You can recognize it instantly as them and you can trace numerous bands who have sought to emulate that sound. I am not sure exactly what it is, I have not analyzed their music that thoroughly, but it definitely has to do with emotive melodies combined with harmonic passages inspired by classical or folk music and a strong structure to the music generally.

The music of Genesis from the Revelation album to Wind and Wuthering are the expression of god in music.

re your comment on phils drumming - What are you talking about? have you even heard him drum?! most of the stuff he plays is using the ride cymbal he is a jazz fusion drummer try listening to any Genesis or Brand X then get back to me with "so much hihat no ride"