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Equality 7-2521 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
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Points: 15784
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 Posted: December 14 2010 at 00:02 |
Why do you assume that the government exists for reasons other than to make a profit? The government is run by the same people who run businesses. Why does the one seek profits and the other seek the glorification of mankind?
I don't understand the placement of trust in the hands of a coercive monopoly rather than allowing peaceful, mutual trade. Monopolies have been completely demonized when it occurs in the market, but the government monopoly exists without the bat of an eye.
Important things that you consider fundamental, like food, clothing, or shelter, are provided cheaply and reliably by the market. Think of things that you ask the government to provide and ask if cheap and reliable can describe it.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: December 14 2010 at 00:20 |
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To a point sure, but as bloated and ineffective as it may be at times, it is less motivated by profit than the private sector.
Of course you don't understand that, it makes no sense. That wasn't my point. I asked wouldn't monopolies form in a totally free market, (one free of regulation). It seems like the natural tendency to me. Can/has a perfectly competitive market exist(ed)? And demonized or not, if it happens it happens.
You, Llama, Anton, Rob, Slarti and Teo each own a burger joint in your town. I own a mega one, and move in and offer big money to buy you out and make it part of mine. You accept. I get a monopoly. People may hate me and demonize me, but so what? I'm making my killing and what can be done? Especially with no laws in place to stop it?
Then I can start making less quality burgers (but don't get people sick) and are cheaper than a place in town still.
And that's a silly one, what if I am running the fire departments, and not burgers....
This is why important things like that can't be left to the private market IMO. Unless you'd put anti monopoly laws in place!
I'd be fine with having food, clothing and shelter provided by the market (at least much more so than now).
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: December 14 2010 at 00:29 |
I don't think politicians are any less driven by profit than the free-market firms. The difference is that government officials obtain profit by corruption and theft.
There's nothing wrong with a natural monopoly. If an industry better serves its customers by providing through a single firm than so be it. A monopoly couldn't maintain its status while taking advantage of its customers. The destructive monopolies throughout history have maintained their power by wielding governmental force.
What can be done? If your rates are unfair people stop buying burgers and a new store opens will price you out of the market. The monopoly conditions you described just don't exist and have no theoretical backing
Anti-trust legislation hasn't stopped monopolies from forming. They've only been used to prosecute firms on the behalf of big business interests with friends in governmental positions. Monopolies are prevented by regular market forces. If market forces fail to prevent the monopoly, there's no reason to suggest that it should have been prevented.
There was only one water-ice store in my neighborhood when I was a kid. They had a monopoly. DIdn't hurt anybody. Everyone loved their water ice, their prices, the people who worked there. Simple demand in the geographic area and customer satisfaction established a monopoly. Monopolies we should fear are those perpetuated by government. These are the destructive ones.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: December 14 2010 at 00:39 |
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Well that's where the idealism comes in, sadly.
I wish corruption and wasteful spending (especially when it goes to benefiting themselves!) could be eliminated.
Minimum wage for politicians!
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: December 14 2010 at 00:54 |
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The problem I see is that, for Pat's system to work well, for the market to be able to really regulate everythig by itself in the described way where monopolies cease to exist if they start abusing their power or workers who are exploited can freely go and find a better job, the market has to be really, totally free. The system has to be almost government-less. But let's face it: how likely is that to happen? The problem is, yes, we de-regulate and that would seem like a step in the right direction towards a full free market, but under present conditions, the only thig we would be actually accomplishing is giving even more power to corporations, banks, and less to those customers and workers for whom a fully free market would in theory work. Unless the change of system is swift and radical, I see de-regulations as potentially very dangerous.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: December 14 2010 at 01:04 |
Thank You Teo, I was wondering where my back up was  And yeah, we tend to argue in theoretical land. What I'd like to see will never really happen realistically, nor will Pat's vision. Even if a Libertarian wave hit, Pat is still quite outside the mainstream and people would have an impossible time accepting a lot of his ideas. Also, I do see the government reducing itself down to practically nothing as pretty unrealistic. This is why the internet is great!
Edited by JJLehto - December 14 2010 at 01:07
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: December 14 2010 at 07:54 |
 The T wrote:
The problem I see is that, for Pat's system to work well, for the market to be able to really regulate everythig by itself in the described way where monopolies cease to exist if they start abusing their power or workers who are exploited can freely go and find a better job, the market has to be really, totally free. The system has to be almost government-less. But let's face it: how likely is that to happen? The problem is, yes, we de-regulate and that would seem like a step in the right direction towards a full free market, but under present conditions, the only thig we would be actually accomplishing is giving even more power to corporations, banks, and less to those customers and workers for whom a fully free market would in theory work. Unless the change of system is swift and radical, I see de-regulations as potentially very dangerous. |
You begin by criticizing the theory of a free-market by attacking its practicality. Can't really take on a mixture of the two. Your assumption really isn't founded. Why does the market have to be totally free? You just need to remove governmental barriers to entry, agreements of exclusivity, and subsidies/taxes which selectively single out industries. Could you explain how deregulation would give the banks and corporations more power? Their power comes from the government! Wealthy bankers used the government to create the Federal Reserve and form their banking cartel. The government hands billions of dollars to banks and other corporations stolen from the common man. The government imposes liability caps and blocks law suites which threaten the most influential corporations. You're believing a sham. Everyone outside of the system hates big business, the big lie that has been sold is that government is fighting to bring down business interests. People keep selling away more money, power, and moral sanction to the government to do so and they continue to prop businesses up further and further.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: December 14 2010 at 07:55 |
JJLehto wrote:
Thank You Teo, I was wondering where my back up was
And yeah, we tend to argue in theoretical land. What I'd like to see will never really happen realistically, nor will Pat's vision.
Even if a Libertarian wave hit, Pat is still quite outside the mainstream and people would have an impossible time accepting a lot of his ideas. Also, I do see the government reducing itself down to practically nothing as pretty unrealistic.
This is why the internet is great!
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My scenario is more likely than yours. A financial collapse brings mine into place at least.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: December 14 2010 at 12:55 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Question: Why does the average person feel a sort of loyalty or connectedness to their government?
They see the millions of lives governments have been responsible for taking. They've most likely never have had their government respond to a request of theirs in anyway. The government has done essentially nothing for them aside from taking wealth and freedom.
Why then the love of your country's government? |
I'm interested in some answers to this. I thought T the Psychologist would have weighed in on this one.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: December 14 2010 at 17:35 |
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I trust the private sector more than the government, because I can generally get what I want from the private sector by paying for it. If I don't like JJ's burgers, I don't have to eat them. I can pay money to get the food I want. Also, me getting the food I want doesn't affect your ability to eat the food you want. With the government, I can't take my busines elsewhere and the policies they implement affect you as well as me.
I agree with Pat that I don't see where the assumption that government workers are saints who have only the common good as their goal comes from. They are just people like any others. Some are okay, some are terrible. The difference is that the terrible ones are largely powerless to abuse their customers in a free market without consequences. Not so, a government worker.
Edited by thellama73 - December 14 2010 at 17:39
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: December 14 2010 at 17:43 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Question: Why does the average person feel a sort of loyalty or connectedness to their government?
They see the millions of lives governments have been responsible for taking. They've most likely never have had their government respond to a request of theirs in anyway. The government has done essentially nothing for them aside from taking wealth and freedom.
Why then the love of your country's government? |
I'm interested in some answers to this. I thought T the Psychologist would have weighed in on this one.
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I guess that, just as people cling to believe in something in order to bring some structure, even some peace into their lives, I'm sure most people are really comfortable having this entity above them that, in theory, solves a lot of their problems, runs a lot of the services they need, and provides security, all this, again, in theory. It's like the big mother, the big god, the big peace-giving idea that lets people sleep at night. Another explanation is how it has been the way society has been structured for generations, centuries, and people are just much more comfortable following what kind of worked once than trying something that might fail. It's the way things are when you're born, and people just probably can't conceive of a government-less life...
And that in this country where government is somewhat limited. Imagine in third world countries like mine where there are millions in poverty; government seems like the big uncle that will ultimately stop them from starving or dying of poor health or from living without a roof after a big tragedy. Populists use this weakness to have people love them. Like in Venezuela, where the poor are the ones supporting Chavez, who continue to eliminate freedoms and rights but maintains power by giving houses and food to the poor.
I guess plain influence is also a reason, a stupidly simple but very real one. If everybody else agrees with it, who am I to say government is not necessary? Just like people will say that something white is black just because 20 people said it was before them, people prefer to go with the flow. You are an exception Pat, somewhat of a virus in the system. Even intelligent, freedom-oriented people like Brian or I see the government as a necessary evil. Maybe we're also wrong but maybe we are also too comfortable with this notion to risk everything for a change. Yes, maybe for a change that might be even better.
People are sold the idea that the country they were born in is as important as your family, and then the government is the final representation of that, so nationalism might also sometimes lead to love for the government, Though that idea doesn't quite apply in the US where most nationalists are actually anti-government; maybe because they know the country's real purpose when founded was one where government power had to be controlled?
Maybe it's just mental laziness, comfort.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: December 14 2010 at 18:11 |
thellama73 wrote:
I trust the private sector more than the government, because I can generally get what I want from the private sector by paying for it. If I don't like JJ's burgers, I don't have to eat them. I can pay money to get the food I want. Also, me getting the food I want doesn't affect your ability to eat the food you want. With the government, I can't take my busines elsewhere and the policies they implement affect you as well as me.
I agree with Pat that I don't see where the assumption that government workers are saints who have only the common good as their goal comes from. They are just people like any others. Some are okay, some are terrible. The difference is that the terrible ones are largely powerless to abuse their customers in a free market without consequences. Not so, a government worker.
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I don't trust the private sector any more than the government sector. Theoretically the government sector works for you whereas the private sector works for stockholders. And each is only as good as the flawed humans that make them up. By which I guess I'm saying both are figments of the imagination.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: December 14 2010 at 19:05 |
You probably have little interaction with immigrants. I have more. I have known of actual illegal immigrant. Many of them are hired for miserable wages and given no kind of days off, make to work as slaves, receive next to nothing, and sometimes are even robbed of their money; employers just tell them "who are you? If you try to make me pay you I'll denounce you to immigration". I see that as one little evidence of the beauty of totally un-regulated employers. I understand that the miserable wages and the slave-like jobs are part of the "free" deal between employer and employee, but how free it really is when one can just not pay the other and even threatens him in case he tries to sue him? That's what scares m of full unregulated for profit businesses. The repugnancy of people hungry for money and wealth may reach no limits...
On the government/private question, I trust both only to a degree. I trust the private sector, moved by profit, will try to please me more. But I also fear that profit-hunger will make them abuse either their employees or the consumer; I trust the government a little because at least there's some responsibility and after all they're elected personnel, they can be voted off, but I fear how they can fool people into accepting cuts to their freedoms for stupid reason.
I guess I should live in an island with good people...  |
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: December 14 2010 at 21:32 |
The T wrote:
You probably have little interaction with immigrants. I have more. I have known of actual illegal immigrant. Many of them are hired for miserable wages and given no kind of days off, make to work as slaves, receive next to nothing, and sometimes are even robbed of their money; employers just tell them "who are you? If you try to make me pay you I'll denounce you to immigration". I see that as one little evidence of the beauty of totally un-regulated employers. I understand that the miserable wages and the slave-like jobs are part of the "free" deal between employer and employee, but how free it really is when one can just not pay the other and even threatens him in case he tries to sue him? That's what scares m of full unregulated for profit businesses. The repugnancy of people hungry for money and wealth may reach no limits...
On the government/private question, I trust both only to a degree. I trust the private sector, moved by profit, will try to please me more. But I also fear that profit-hunger will make them abuse either their employees or the consumer; I trust the government a little because at least there's some responsibility and after all they're elected personnel, they can be voted off, but I fear how they can fool people into accepting cuts to their freedoms for stupid reason.
I guess I should live in an island with good people... |
No offense T, but this is the stuff that gets me so irate. You're attempting to criticize the free-market, but your example shows a market perverted by the government. The situation you've described has come from the government. Of course businesses treat illegal immigrants like dirt, pay them dirt wages, and abuse them. This is because the government has arbitrarily declared illegal immigrants as less-than-human entities. They have no recourse in the legal system. They have no ability to voice a complaint without fear of prosecution for their very existence by government. They're forced to live in shadows which wouldn't exist free of government.
Contradiction?
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: December 14 2010 at 21:35 |
The T wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Question: Why does the average person feel a sort of loyalty or connectedness to their government?
They see the millions of lives governments have been responsible for taking. They've most likely never have had their government respond to a request of theirs in anyway. The government has done essentially nothing for them aside from taking wealth and freedom.
Why then the love of your country's government? |
I'm interested in some answers to this. I thought T the Psychologist would have weighed in on this one.
|
I guess that, just as people cling to believe in something in order to bring some structure, even some peace into their lives, I'm sure most people are really comfortable having this entity above them that, in theory, solves a lot of their problems, runs a lot of the services they need, and provides security, all this, again, in theory. It's like the big mother, the big god, the big peace-giving idea that lets people sleep at night. Another explanation is how it has been the way society has been structured for generations, centuries, and people are just much more comfortable following what kind of worked once than trying something that might fail. It's the way things are when you're born, and people just probably can't conceive of a government-less life...
And that in this country where government is somewhat limited. Imagine in third world countries like mine where there are millions in poverty; government seems like the big uncle that will ultimately stop them from starving or dying of poor health or from living without a roof after a big tragedy. Populists use this weakness to have people love them. Like in Venezuela, where the poor are the ones supporting Chavez, who continue to eliminate freedoms and rights but maintains power by giving houses and food to the poor.
I guess plain influence is also a reason, a stupidly simple but very real one. If everybody else agrees with it, who am I to say government is not necessary? Just like people will say that something white is black just because 20 people said it was before them, people prefer to go with the flow. You are an exception Pat, somewhat of a virus in the system. Even intelligent, freedom-oriented people like Brian or I see the government as a necessary evil. Maybe we're also wrong but maybe we are also too comfortable with this notion to risk everything for a change. Yes, maybe for a change that might be even better.
People are sold the idea that the country they were born in is as important as your family, and then the government is the final representation of that, so nationalism might also sometimes lead to love for the government, Though that idea doesn't quite apply in the US where most nationalists are actually anti-government; maybe because they know the country's real purpose when founded was one where government power had to be controlled?
Maybe it's just mental laziness, comfort. |
Good response. I like it. I agree.
Thanks for calling me a virus.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: December 14 2010 at 21:40 |
The T wrote:
You probably have little interaction with immigrants. I have more. I have known of actual illegal immigrant. Many of them are hired for miserable wages and given no kind of days off, make to work as slaves, receive next to nothing, and sometimes are even robbed of their money; employers just tell them "who are you? If you try to make me pay you I'll denounce you to immigration". I see that as one little evidence of the beauty of totally un-regulated employers. I understand that the miserable wages and the slave-like jobs are part of the "free" deal between employer and employee, but how free it really is when one can just not pay the other and even threatens him in case he tries to sue him? That's what scares m of full unregulated for profit businesses. The repugnancy of people hungry for money and wealth may reach no limits...
On the government/private question, I trust both only to a degree. I trust the private sector, moved by profit, will try to please me more. But I also fear that profit-hunger will make them abuse either their employees or the consumer; I trust the government a little because at least there's some responsibility and after all they're elected personnel, they can be voted off, but I fear how they can fool people into accepting cuts to their freedoms for stupid reason.
I guess I should live in an island with good people... |
SO your argument is that private companies are bad because they threaten to turn illegals over to the government for deportation, but the government that deports them is good? I don't see how that makes any sense.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: December 15 2010 at 00:24 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Question: Why does the average person feel a sort of loyalty or connectedness to their government?
They see the millions of lives governments have been responsible for taking. They've most likely never have had their government respond to a request of theirs in anyway. The government has done essentially nothing for them aside from taking wealth and freedom.
Why then the love of your country's government? |
I'm interested in some answers to this. I thought T the Psychologist would have weighed in on this one.
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Well, I was only able to give you mine. Im not in the heads of other so I can only speak for myself. If I had to take an educated guess, they are dumb/brainwashed/its all they really know?
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Kestrel
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 18 2008
Location: Minnesota
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: December 15 2010 at 04:17 |
Congress is supposed to be government "of the people, by the people, for the people" and so I would argue that we are supposed to more or less trust Congress. They represent us. We have become so far removed from of/by/for however that we can't even trust the single branch we are supposed to trust. We linger on to something that does not completely exist anymore. I am all for a distrust of the executive branch, however. Just like the private sector, they do good things and they do bad things. Authority and power should just be questioned constantly, no matter who they are beholden to.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: December 15 2010 at 08:47 |
When Lincoln uttered that phrase he was referring to the entire that government. For the record, that was after he has suspended Habeas Corpus for Americans, imprisoned Congressmen, and was in the process of destroying a country which had the audacity to withdraw from the supposed contract that is the Constitution.
The Congress doesn't represent you just because it was named the representative branch. It certainly doesn't represent me.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: December 15 2010 at 18:42 |
 Sorry about that. Y'all can get on with the discussion.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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