Theism vs. Atheism ... will it ever be settled? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Snow Dog

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Posted: December 13 2010 at 13:21

Textbook

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Posted: December 13 2010 at 13:50

I remember when Four Lions came out there was a report on suicide bombers which said that they were not generally deviously cunning religious fanatics, but sad, socially inept bumblers who had their strings pulled by Iago-like masters.

Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down

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Posted: December 13 2010 at 13:53

My point is not really the provocative nature of the video ... it's rather this:

I wish Theists would stop presenting arguments they know are flawed, because at their foundation, when you follow the causal chain, lies the requirement of faith - so they're not really what us skeptics asked for. Smile

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: December 13 2010 at 13:54

Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Yep evangelism to people who don' want it is tasteless........One question atheist evangelism (paying advices, propaganda , etc of atheism) isn't the same?

He feels contaminated in presence of religion and don't want to listen any argument, buy he insults and attacks every person who has the sin to not agree with him.......But hey, nobody can tell him anything....Sorry, this guy is a close minded bigot, no matter how paused he talks

We don't pay propaganda saying "Convert to Catholicism", but atheists pay millions to promote atheism in buses, newspapers, TV, etc.

Our Church has never asked me money to share their truth (as a fact Catholic Church don't asks us money exceptcents in Church and it's voluntary), this guys make millions selling their books and giving well paid conferences around the world.

Pot...Kettle?.

God, some atheists are amazing

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 13 2010 at 14:02

rpe9p

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Posted: December 13 2010 at 14:00

Mr ProgFreak wrote:

My point is not really the provocative nature of the video ... it's rather this:

Stop kidding yourself, you love seeing theists present flawed arguments because it makes you feel good about yourself. Otherwise why would you start this thread if the question was already settled in your mind? Or is your objective really to "convert" the Theists

Snow Dog

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Posted: December 13 2010 at 14:03

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

.One question is atheist evangelism

Such a concept has no meaning. The two words don't coexist.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

God, some atheists are amazing

Iván

Thanks

Ian

Edited by Snow Dog - December 13 2010 at 14:04

Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down

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Posted: December 13 2010 at 14:12

rpe9p wrote:

Mr ProgFreak wrote:

My point is not really the provocative nature of the video ... it's rather this:

I love to argue about this topic - I've often mentioned that. I can't really explain why - I'm not buying the often used argument that the more someone talks about something, the less he actually believes it, and he's only looking for confirmation. I genuinely like arguments about that topic - that's why I also love to watch formal debates.

Looking back at the last twelve months or so - it was great. And I learned a lot about science in the process. And all the quotes ... like that one by Steven Weinberg:

"One of the great achievements of science has been, if not to make it impossible for intelligent people to be religious, then at least to make it possible for them not to be religious"

Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down

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Posted: December 13 2010 at 14:16

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Yep evangelism to people who don' want it is tasteless........One question atheist evangelism (paying advices, propaganda , etc of atheism) isn't the same?

We don't pay propaganda saying "Convert to Catholicism", but atheists pay millions to promote atheism in buses, newspapers, TV, etc.

Pot...Kettle?.

God, some atheists are amazing

Iván

You always call us close minded or bigots ... which is only revealing your own ignorance.

Consider another quote, most often attributed to Richard Feynman (paraphrased):

It's nice to be open minded - but not so much that your brains fall out.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: December 13 2010 at 14:53

Snow Dog wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

.One question is atheist evangelism

Such a concept has no meaning. The two words don't coexist.

If you had quoted my complete statement,. you would had seen both words are perfectly compatible

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

One question atheist evangelism (paying advices, propaganda , etc of atheism) isn't the same?

Evangelism is not only biblical teachings it's also

Evangelism: militant or crusading zeal

Merriam Webster Dictionary

Some atheists:

Pay advice in buses telling people to follow their disbelieve
Have TV, radio and even Internet programs
Pay advice in newspapers
Start campaigns and even pickets against religious leaders (like Dawkins with the Pope)
Go from university to university telling people that atheism is the truth and that religion is offensive, absurd, etc
Some associations of atheists ask for donations
All of them search books telling their truth (and make a ot of bucks BTW)

Don't tell me me this is not a militant crusade against religion.

Iván

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: December 13 2010 at 15:04

DOUBLE POST DELETED BY THE AUTHOR

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 13 2010 at 15:08

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: December 13 2010 at 15:04

Mr ProgFreak wrote:

You always call us close minded or bigots ... which is only revealing your own ignorance.

Consider another quote, most often attributed to Richard Feynman (paraphrased):

It's nice to be open minded - but not so much that your brains fall out.

Please Mike, what argument do you have to call me ignorant?

On the other hand, i can affirm with arguments that the ignorance is your's Mike.

big·ot

noun \ˈbi-gət\

: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

The guy, who's name I don't know or care says

"I'm acused of being close minded, I have to admit there's truth in the accusation"

He's accepting to be close minded

The guy also says:

Religious leaders, preachers, pastors, priests (he says those who make a professorial of religion) are the scum of the earth
Religion makes me feel dirty
Religious people are ignorants
Religion is false and offensive
I'm prejudiced against religion,
I already made my mindI don't care for your arguments but I can attack you
I don't have to listen your arguments but you have to listen mine because it's the truth

And you dare to say he's not intolerant and devoted to his own opinion?

BTW: Your brain won't fall for believing in God, But your quote of Richard Feynman, reveals that you admit to be close minded.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 13 2010 at 15:30

Henry Plainview View Drop Down

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Posted: December 13 2010 at 15:27

Well venturing back in here was a lot less fun than I was hoping. But while we're talking about Feynmann and religion, this is an excellent video.

Perhaps the "Miracles" video did have a point after all...

if you own a sodastream i hate you

Textbook

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Posted: December 13 2010 at 16:57

But Ivan, he's *right*.

Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down

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Posted: December 13 2010 at 17:03

^^^

I knew that would piss you off, Iván. I simply know how to push your buttons.

Well, by your definition I'm close minded ... I have no problem with that. I am *actually* open minded, and you're simply confusing open mindedness with gullibility. But since you don't care about whether you're actually right - because you already *know* it can't be the Atheist, we'll never get anywhere with this discussion.

Over and out. Smile

Edited by Mr ProgFreak - December 13 2010 at 17:05

Textbook

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Posted: December 13 2010 at 17:14

Mr PF: Are you open minded really? Because I had to admit the other day that I'm not. If I was open-minded, I would have to concede the possibility of coming around and being persuaded that theism was valid and joining an organised religion.

However, I do not admit this possibility. I will never join an organised religion. Never ever. I guess therefore I'm not truely open-minded on religion.

Are you saying that you concede that times could change and you could convert one day?

Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down

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Posted: December 13 2010 at 17:39

Why say never? That's really unscientific. I'm simply a skeptic. That doesn't preclude open-mindedness ... I'm simply waiting for the Theists to make a convincing case. As long as it's not convincing, rejecting it does not make me close minded.

Remember that Iván believes until proven wrong. That is what Feynman referred to with "brains fall out". It's gullibility. It's not being open minded, it's not caring about whether what you believe is true.

So, I'm open minded by my definition, not by Iván's. By my definition he's close minded, because he's ignoring evidence that's contrary to his beliefs.My skepticism, however, does not conflict with any demonstrable facts.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: December 13 2010 at 17:59

Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Being that I'm so gullible and that my brain falling out could you tell me which evidence do you have that denies my beliefs?

Iván

Textbook

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Posted: December 13 2010 at 18:02

None, he has none Ivan, you're right, everything you say is right, you're the king of philosophers.

PF: It seems to me that you have decided that no set of facts could prove a religion true. That means any set of facts presented you will deny. This means religion can never be proved true to you. This means you are closed to the idea of religion being true because it can't be proven to you.

Not well written but you know what I mean.

This is not actually a problem though. Do you need to open to everything? Do you need to be open to the idea that murder and rape might be good things? No. So similarly one can be closed on something evil/destructive like religion without there being any problem.

Slartibartfast View Drop Down

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Posted: December 13 2010 at 18:18

We must make a commitment to settle it before this thread runs out of pages.

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down

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Posted: December 13 2010 at 18:22

@Textbook: Not at all. Any set of facts presented to me I will examine and evaluate. And I have - show me some facts that I have ignored, and I'll tell you what I think about them.

@Iván: There you go again, requesting that I prove your religion wrong. You believe until proven wrong, that's the problem! We've already gone through all the inconsistencies in your religion and between the religions (or even the Christian denominations to start with), plus all the logical contradictions of the various "God" concepts - please don't pretend that you've already forgotten them. But even if none had been presented - the burden of proof is on you. YOU claim that there is a God, and that he created us and has a plan and so forth. You need to provide evidence that any of that is actually true - if you can't then how can you expect me to believe it? And how can you blame me for not understandiing how you could believe it.

Edited by Mr ProgFreak - December 13 2010 at 18:23