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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2010 at 11:44
Yeah that's part of the problem. The movement is being hijacked and the terms are being changed.

Leading Republicans are now calling for the removal of the TSA from airport security. It will be replaced by private contractors, who will be bound by TSA procedures, hired by TSA officials, and under the scrutiny of the TSA.

You get your government control and kick-backs to big business at the same time. Republican strategy 101.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2010 at 09:03
Just remember, simply swapping out the federal agents for private contractors won't do when the policies are still mandated.  The actual policies have to be repealed.

Start asking for warrants at the airport.  Tongue
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2010 at 08:15
I think a good deal of people are beginning to wake up on this issue. I don't think Ron Paul's bill has a serious chance, but we'll see how big of a stir it makes. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2010 at 19:11
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


TSA forces a 12 year old boy to take his shirt of and receive a pat down, despite not even setting off the metal detector.

I feel so safe. 

Hey maybe the TSA could come to your home and give you a full body cavity search and they you could feel really safe.  This kind of crap reminds me of zero tolerance policies at schools.  More like zero intelligence.  When will the American sheeple stand up and say enough is enough?  No, we'll all be anal probed and flying naked and only then will we truly be safe.  Angry
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 4335 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2010 at 11:51
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


On the Obama thing, you have to realize democrats don't give a sh*t about civil rights. Nor do Republicans.
 
 
Need any supporting evidence:
 
Both Republican and Democrats want to control aspects of our lives and every now and then they will combine forces completely to screw us all over.  If this passes, and is upheld by the courts, then we will be looking at a new "War on Drugs" (what a glorious success that has been).


Time always wins.
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2010 at 11:04

TSA forces a 12 year old boy to take his shirt of and receive a pat down, despite not even setting off the metal detector.

I feel so safe. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2010 at 11:02
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

I understand being uncomfortable around guns, my dad is a gun nut and I still am not a fan, but an "air rage"-induced massacre is obviously silly, be reasonable here. Also, Mythbusters showed that it's not possible to blow up a car by shooting its gas tank. Although, to be fair llama, you can't legally drink in a car while you can in a plane. Should you be able to drink and carry in a plane? That is a reasonable concern, and I wouldn't want anyone intoxicated to have a gun around me in a plane, especially since the altitude increases the effect of alcohol.

Honestly Finnforest, I think the airport security before 9/11 was just fine go back to that, and the Republicans can spit nonsense about "a pre-9/11 mentality" all they want. 9/11 isn't going to happen again with knives: the passengers know to resist, and the cockpit doors are reinforced and can't be opened anymore. We should be spending less money on the slight chance of another terrorist attack and more on the 11 times as many people who are killed, just as senselessly, every year on the highways. I don't see how the malice of 9/11 makes the death any worse than being killed by somebody who was texting (or even being killed by someone in an unavoidable accident). But of course terrorism is big and symbolic, so our stupid, emotional brain focuses on that instead.

Anyway, we're not getting any help from Obama on this one. AND I VOTED FOR YOU IN THE PRIMARY YOU JERK!

Completely agree with you.

On the Obama thing, you have to realize democrats don't give a sh*t about civil rights. Nor do Republicans.
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2010 at 10:55
Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

 
Not really.  If you fire a gun somewhere - lets say a shop - it is unlikely the whole shop is going up in flames (Or down).   It only takes one missplaced bullet on a plane to potentially bring it down.  Someone might get nervous about the behaviour of another passenger and get a gun out.  THere are plenty of cases of people losing it on planes -- but they normally don't have a AK - 47 on them.  No planning involved.  
 
I hate gum.  A flame thrower?  Tank?


What if the shop is a gas station? When is the last time someone blew up a gas station by firing their perfectly legal gun into the tanks? It just doesn't happen in real life, I don't know why you assume it would happen on planes more than anywhere else.
 
 
Gosh silly me!  Or an explosives shop maybe.  Yes this doesn't happen (Often) in real life.  My concern is that (See above) people tend to lose it on planes its called 'Air-rage' or something like that, not just terrorists tha knows.  Although there are terrorists too.  My assumption that it would happen more on planes is well, just an assumption in your head. 
 
I do think that we need to get the Terrorist bit into perspective mind..  Many more people die on hte roads every day and people accept it as part of life (Or death).


People have road rage too and its legal to carry guns in cars, but you don't see people shooting each other on roads left and right.  I think you overestimate how willing people are to shoot someone just because they are angry.
 
I guess we'll only really find out if we have a trial run.  Like Equality says you can have different companies with different rules some guns some no guns.  Then you takes yer choice.  Of course if you're wrong whoever's house the plane lands on will be well pissed off as they didn't have a choice.
 
In the end I am being truly British, I don't like people carrying guns especially near me and even more so in an environment that I cannot escape.

Then that person can bring the company to court and try to seek some compensation.

I think llama responded to everything for me. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2010 at 10:54
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Pat, you do support a businesses right to make their own rules on their property, correct?    So, Walmart can throw you out of their store, or surveil you if they want, and I assume you'd support their right to do so.  Private business. 

So what if TSA were gone, and private airlines concluded they need/want to pat down people who come onto their business property....the plane.  They should be allowed to do it? 

Of course they should. I've said that numerous times I think. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2010 at 09:12
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

I understand being uncomfortable around guns, my dad is a gun nut and I still am not a fan, but an "air rage"-induced massacre is obviously silly, be reasonable here. Also, Mythbusters showed that it's not possible to blow up a car by shooting its gas tank. Although, to be fair llama, you can't legally drink in a car while you can in a plane. Should you be able to drink and carry in a plane? That is a reasonable concern, and I wouldn't want anyone intoxicated to have a gun around me in a plane, especially since the altitude increases the effect of alcohol.

Honestly Finnforest, I think the airport security before 9/11 was just fine go back to that, and the Republicans can spit nonsense about "a pre-9/11 mentality" all they want. 9/11 isn't going to happen again with knives: the passengers know to resist, and the cockpit doors are reinforced and can't be opened anymore. We should be spending less money on the slight chance of another terrorist attack and more on the 11 times as many people who are killed, just as senselessly, every year on the highways. I don't see how the malice of 9/11 makes the death any worse than being killed by somebody who was texting (or even being killed by someone in an unavoidable accident). But of course terrorism is big and symbolic, so our stupid, emotional brain focuses on that instead.

Anyway, we're not getting any help from Obama on this one. AND I VOTED FOR YOU IN THE PRIMARY YOU JERK!


Well said, Henry. Yeah, you can drink on a plane, but they cut you off before you get obnoxiously drunk, at least, so I don't see it as such a big issue. You're right about 9/11 not happening again. That's the thing people can't seem to grasp: there's no way passengers would allow any sort of hijacking to take place now that we know what their intentions are. The only air related incidents we've had since then have involved attempted bombings, and these full body scanners don't detect explosives any better than a metal detector does. The next time terrorists want to give us a scare, they will do it in a completely unexpected way.
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2010 at 08:46
I support gun toting drunks on a plane as long as it has snakes.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 16715 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2010 at 01:04
I understand being uncomfortable around guns, my dad is a gun nut and I still am not a fan, but an "air rage"-induced massacre is obviously silly, be reasonable here. Also, Mythbusters showed that it's not possible to blow up a car by shooting its gas tank. Although, to be fair llama, you can't legally drink in a car while you can in a plane. Should you be able to drink and carry in a plane? That is a reasonable concern, and I wouldn't want anyone intoxicated to have a gun around me in a plane, especially since the altitude increases the effect of alcohol.

Honestly Finnforest, I think the airport security before 9/11 was just fine go back to that, and the Republicans can spit nonsense about "a pre-9/11 mentality" all they want. 9/11 isn't going to happen again with knives: the passengers know to resist, and the cockpit doors are reinforced and can't be opened anymore. We should be spending less money on the slight chance of another terrorist attack and more on the 11 times as many people who are killed, just as senselessly, every year on the highways. I don't see how the malice of 9/11 makes the death any worse than being killed by somebody who was texting (or even being killed by someone in an unavoidable accident). But of course terrorism is big and symbolic, so our stupid, emotional brain focuses on that instead.

Anyway, we're not getting any help from Obama on this one. AND I VOTED FOR YOU IN THE PRIMARY YOU JERK!


Edited by Henry Plainview - November 21 2010 at 01:07
if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Points: 6797 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2010 at 16:28
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

 
Not really.  If you fire a gun somewhere - lets say a shop - it is unlikely the whole shop is going up in flames (Or down).   It only takes one missplaced bullet on a plane to potentially bring it down.  Someone might get nervous about the behaviour of another passenger and get a gun out.  THere are plenty of cases of people losing it on planes -- but they normally don't have a AK - 47 on them.  No planning involved.  
 
I hate gum.  A flame thrower?  Tank?


What if the shop is a gas station? When is the last time someone blew up a gas station by firing their perfectly legal gun into the tanks? It just doesn't happen in real life, I don't know why you assume it would happen on planes more than anywhere else.
 
 
Gosh silly me!  Or an explosives shop maybe.  Yes this doesn't happen (Often) in real life.  My concern is that (See above) people tend to lose it on planes its called 'Air-rage' or something like that, not just terrorists tha knows.  Although there are terrorists too.  My assumption that it would happen more on planes is well, just an assumption in your head. 
 
I do think that we need to get the Terrorist bit into perspective mind..  Many more people die on hte roads every day and people accept it as part of life (Or death).


People have road rage too and its legal to carry guns in cars, but you don't see people shooting each other on roads left and right.  I think you overestimate how willing people are to shoot someone just because they are angry.
 
I guess we'll only really find out if we have a trial run.  Like Equality says you can have different companies with different rules some guns some no guns.  Then you takes yer choice.  Of course if you're wrong whoever's house the plane lands on will be well pissed off as they didn't have a choice.
 
In the end I am being truly British, I don't like people carrying guns especially near me and even more so in an environment that I cannot escape.
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2010 at 16:24
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Pat, you do support a businesses right to make their own rules on their property, correct?    So, Walmart can throw you out of their store, or surveil you if they want, and I assume you'd support their right to do so.  Private business. 

So what if TSA were gone, and private airlines concluded they need/want to pat down people who come onto their business property....the plane.  They should be allowed to do it? 


Seems like that would make the most sense - you could have airlines with aggressive procedures that cater to passengers who don't mind privacy matters/scans/patdowns, and airlines that have more respect for passenger privacy and less aggressive procedures.  The problem now is that there are TSA regulations that are mandated by federal law, irregardless of who is in charge of security (federal agents vs. private contractors), so you can't really get the true choice ("free market") anyway.
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2010 at 15:57
Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

 
Not really.  If you fire a gun somewhere - lets say a shop - it is unlikely the whole shop is going up in flames (Or down).   It only takes one missplaced bullet on a plane to potentially bring it down.  Someone might get nervous about the behaviour of another passenger and get a gun out.  THere are plenty of cases of people losing it on planes -- but they normally don't have a AK - 47 on them.  No planning involved.  
 
I hate gum.  A flame thrower?  Tank?


What if the shop is a gas station? When is the last time someone blew up a gas station by firing their perfectly legal gun into the tanks? It just doesn't happen in real life, I don't know why you assume it would happen on planes more than anywhere else.
 
 
Gosh silly me!  Or an explosives shop maybe.  Yes this doesn't happen (Often) in real life.  My concern is that (See above) people tend to lose it on planes its called 'Air-rage' or something like that, not just terrorists tha knows.  Although there are terrorists too.  My assumption that it would happen more on planes is well, just an assumption in your head. 
 
I do think that we need to get the Terrorist bit into perspective mind..  Many more people die on hte roads every day and people accept it as part of life (Or death).


People have road rage too and its legal to carry guns in cars, but you don't see people shooting each other on roads left and right.  I think you overestimate how willing people are to shoot someone just because they are angry.
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Points: 6797 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2010 at 15:28
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

 
Not really.  If you fire a gun somewhere - lets say a shop - it is unlikely the whole shop is going up in flames (Or down).   It only takes one missplaced bullet on a plane to potentially bring it down.  Someone might get nervous about the behaviour of another passenger and get a gun out.  THere are plenty of cases of people losing it on planes -- but they normally don't have a AK - 47 on them.  No planning involved.  
 
I hate gum.  A flame thrower?  Tank?


What if the shop is a gas station? When is the last time someone blew up a gas station by firing their perfectly legal gun into the tanks? It just doesn't happen in real life, I don't know why you assume it would happen on planes more than anywhere else.
 
 
Gosh silly me!  Or an explosives shop maybe.  Yes this doesn't happen (Often) in real life.  My concern is that (See above) people tend to lose it on planes its called 'Air-rage' or something like that, not just terrorists tha knows.  Although there are terrorists too.  My assumption that it would happen more on planes is well, just an assumption in your head. 
 
I do think that we need to get the Terrorist bit into perspective mind..  Many more people die on hte roads every day and people accept it as part of life (Or death).
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2010 at 15:28
Profiling just means that they will have to use people who won't be likely to be singled out.  We will never be totally safe until we turn off all people to flying on commercial airlines and anal probe everyone who are still willing.  For crying out loud, Sullenberger said this is pointless.  I think he is someone worthy of being listened to.

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-11-16/travel/travel.airport.security.measures_1_chesley-sully-sullenberger-tsa-procedures-security-screening?_s=PM:TRAVEL


Edited by Slartibartfast - November 20 2010 at 15:31
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 17250 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2010 at 15:13
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

OK my friends.  The public is going nuts.  You say you don't want pat-downs.  We don't want scanners.  We don't want profiling.  We don't like the Israeli approach. 


I want profiling. It's not my fault you don't agree with me.


But I do agree with you, or at least am willing to listen to the experts opinion on it.  I'd consider profiling/passenger engagement where it makes sense, I'm really "all of the above" on this stuff.  We need a multi-prong approach, revising our tactics as threats change, using different tactics and shifting tactics so that have an element of surprise.  Nothing is perfect, but we need to make some effort beyond chance as our strategy.  We just need to figure out how to do it quickly so passengers aren't waiting around all day long. 


Edited by Finnforest - November 20 2010 at 15:15
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Points: 4335 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2010 at 13:44
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Pat, you do support a businesses right to make their own rules on their property, correct?    So, Walmart can throw you out of their store, or surveil you if they want, and I assume you'd support their right to do so.  Private business. 

So what if TSA were gone, and private airlines concluded they need/want to pat down people who come onto their business property....the plane.  They should be allowed to do it? 
 
 
I don't see why not but they might find themselves out of business after awhile.  Assuming the government doesn't artificially prop up the failing airline and limit who's allowed to enter the market/compete with them.  They would, however, because I'm sure airlines are on the "too big to fail" list. 
 
Also, to Equality's point:  I think an AK-47 might have to be checked, due to it's size.  I'm not entirely sure, though, as I've never actually held one.


Edited by manofmystery - November 20 2010 at 13:47


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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2010 at 13:42
Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

 
Not really.  If you fire a gun somewhere - lets say a shop - it is unlikely the whole shop is going up in flames (Or down).   It only takes one missplaced bullet on a plane to potentially bring it down.  Someone might get nervous about the behaviour of another passenger and get a gun out.  THere are plenty of cases of people losing it on planes -- but they normally don't have a AK - 47 on them.  No planning involved.  
 
I hate gum.  A flame thrower?  Tank?


What if the shop is a gas station? When is the last time someone blew up a gas station by firing their perfectly legal gun into the tanks? It just doesn't happen in real life, I don't know why you assume it would happen on planes more than anywhere else.
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