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Topic ClosedIs it all about the music - really?

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DomValela View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2010 at 20:02
I think about this all the time...I'm 16 and I've been listening to Prog music for a few  years now. Genesis is my favorite band. I was 13 when Genesis came to Montreal in September of 2007 on their TIOA reunion tour. I had heard A Trick of the Tail, Abacab and the Shapes album over and over and over again for months by the time I got the tickets as a birthday gift. Today, my favorite bands include Yes, Pink Floyd, King Crimson, ELP, Gentle Giant and...(heheheh)...da zeuhl wortz MAGMA!! The list goes on! Plus, my favorite Genesis album is "Selling England," Today  I listen to the Peter Gabriel era albums ten times as often as the rest. (Keep in mind, I started with a select few random PC-era albums.)  

But sometimes, when my ego sinks a little, I ponder the idea that I might have labelled myself a "Prog Head" before I really got into the music just because I had these expensive tickets! Another question I ask myself in these periods is: Am I expanding my knowledge of prog now solely because I've made prog synonymous with good music in my mind? At any rate, it doesn't matter now, because I've fallen in love with the music and preach about it to my friends all the time. (One of them is just about as avid a prog fan as me now!) It's an interesting thought, but I still know that Prog is important to me, I love listening to it (and playing what I can!) and I don't think it really matters why. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2010 at 20:06
Stop thinking about it and crank some Krautrock.  Reefer optional
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2010 at 21:00
Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

Stop thinking about it and crank some Krautrock.  Reefer optional


lol...I've been meaning to hear some Grobschnitt. I listened to the one with the flying thing on the cover...("somebody's" story") and I was impressed. Ballerman and Solar Music Live look interesting. 

And I just heard some Klaus Schulze today...but he's not really Krautrock...him and TD are more Electronica I guess. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2010 at 08:57
Originally posted by progpositivity progpositivity wrote:

Thanks for your observations "thehallway"!
 
I too have always considered 'Wish You Were Here' to be very well-produced and clean.  Certainly there is some objective validity to this.  But to what extent does the pristine white color of the album cover also contribute to that perception? 
 
I personally believe that "Memoirs of an Officer and a Gentleman" and "Canario" are not bad pieces of music!  But by the time a prog fan has endured the first 5 tracks, they are understandably a bit incredulous and weary.  And so, not only the cover art and album title conspire against it, so does the running order of the album.
 
What if the title had been...
 
ELP - Memoirs of an Officer and a Gentleman
 
What if the running order had been...
 
The entirety of Side One = Memoirs of an Officer and a Gentleman.  Side Two starts with Canario and the rest of the filler was tucked away at the end of side two... Might those songs have more easily been viewed as nothing more than curiously ill-advised dalliances into pop-rock?
 
And finally, what if the band had acted as though they had really believed in the album instead of treating it like the "contractual obligation" that it was?
 
Of course, we will never know - but it is a great question!
 
I bought the gatefold sleeved vinyl of 'Works Volume 1' today, and boy does that package have an effect on the listening experience! I always loved Keith's concerto but the somewhat mediocre Lake ballads seemed today to be more... "in the moment" I guess, in comparison to my tiny CD box set.
 
Love Beach may have the opposite effect in large sizing............. LOL


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2010 at 03:48
I do think the coverwork of an album influences my thoughts about it. And I too, try to like a record that has either very good artwork or is high-rated on PA. This usually doesn't work in the long run. In the end it's all about the music.

The opposite also accurs: I don't want to like an album that's very populair. I didn't want to like Selling England for instance, or even Yes in general. Often these gut-feelings aren't useless. I still don't like Selling England and I can only appriciate side one of the Yes album. I can't stand Dark Side of the Moon and Thick as a Brick makes me want to skip side two more often than not.

Trying to like or dislike music doesn't work in the long run, but it's hard to avoid it. Music isn't totally intellectual, and it's more than emotional if you're a trained listener. Listening behaviour (counting the numbers of spins) says more about your taste then what you think you like.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2010 at 03:59
Just look at the release date on the packaging. That tells you all you need to know.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2010 at 04:59
The music is paramount.  Nice packaging is icing on the cake.  And not trying new or new to you prog with preconceptions will grant you a more enjoyable music experience.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2010 at 10:19
Album covers influence the way I think of music a little bit too much. It changes the way the music is visualized in my head. And most often, if it's good music, it looks good in my head. I constantly relate music to visual aesthetic.  If the album cover doesn't match what I hear but the music is good, it's sort of like lasagna. It's really good but it'll probably leave a bad taste in your mouth. If I see the album cover before I listen to the music, I'll see textures or colors similar to the ones on the cover.

Ex. Grizzly Bear's Veckatimest has some very turquoise music, but the album cover doesn't match it at all.
It actually doesn't influence much at all, but it is annoying.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2010 at 08:37
Music is the best. Album covers are marketing tools. Some (indeed many) are works of art, some can surely enhance the listening experience, but at the end of the day music is all about music.Big smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2010 at 08:47
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Music is the best. Album covers are marketing tools. Some (indeed many) are works of art, some can surely enhance the listening experience, but at the end of the day music is all about music.Big smile

The thing I dislike in rock appreciation is how even album art appreciation is elevated as a fine art and not taking the same into account deemed to be ignorant or ill-informed.  Personally, even the worst and most repelling artwork conceivable would not put me off an album and even the most beautiful artwork would not lead me to give an album more credit than its music deserves. It's all about the music indeed, I don't even know how the artwork could make someone dislike a good or great music album. What it can do however is to influence your decision to buy or not to buy an album because good artwork looks eye catching on the racks and attracts more customers.  Of course, if you already know the artist and just don't have a particular album in your collection, even that doesn't really matter so much. When I read the caption "Bill Evans - Waltz for Debby" on a CD while shopping recently, I don't think I so much as took a good look at the artwork. It was a surefire buy for me and it paid off, needless to say.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2010 at 18:23
rogerthat,  I would certainly never want to imply that someone who is less affected by album covers is in any way ignorant or ill-informed. 
 
My post actually was a question to see how self-aware prog listeners are regarding the various factors that go into the judgements that we form of the music we hear. 
 
Scientific research suggests that people tend to oversimplify matters of judgement, inadvertently dismissing the impact of contributing factors which they were not consciously aware of during the decision making process.  So far, based upon most of the responses to this thread, I have concluded that this appears to be true of prog fans as it relates to music as well.  (I'm not pointing toward you specifically - just the responses overall lead me to think this is probably the case.  Of cousre, one could make the case that I simply have not articulated the idea well enough.  That could be true as well so I'll try again).  Smile
 
For example, one study indicated that individuals were more likely to judge someone guilty of a crime if there was an unpleasant odor in the room at the time that they were asked to made their assessment.  Test subjects did not believe that the unpleasant odor altered their conclusions.  But it was evident that - statistically speaking - it did.
 
I realize the first thing we all tend to do is deny by saying "I'm not one of the people who would be affected by an external variable like that!"  But is that truly the case?  Clearly there were respondents who thought they were not affected by the external variable when in fact they were affected by it!
 
I'd like to provide 2 very easy to recognize examples that I have noticed in myself when it comes to listening to prog music.  (I'm using simple examples in the hopes of better conveying the idea.  There are some more complex, less readily apparent variables that also impact judgements.  I'll be glad to share an example of one of those if anyone is interested...)
 
1) If I listen to a new CD when I have a headache or have the flu, I tend to experience it very differently than if I listen to it when I am feeling fantastic.  If I did not enjoy the CD when I was ill, I will tend to "give it another chance" because I recognize a non-musical factor affected my perception of the CD.
 
2) If I have a stack of 4 CD's to listen to and review, and I am exhausted but feel obligated to listen to the 4 CD's before going to bed, I experience the first one differently than I do the 4th one.  And I experience all of them differently than when I only have 1 CD to listen to, it is one I have heard wonderful things about, and I've been waiting for it to arrive.
 
By recognizing this, I can place the 4th CD "first in line" for the next time I go to review CD's.  This gives it a chance to impress me while I am still fresh.  Sometimes this makes a big difference.  Other times it does not. 
 
I certainly agree that experientially, the music listening experience is of tantamount important to most prog music listeners.  I wholeheartedly agree that actively attempting to eradicate preconceptions will grant us a more enjoyable music experience... 
 
Furthermore, my suggestion is that once we become aware of some of the previously unnoticed factors that tend to color and influence our judgements, we will then be able to take them into account in order to arrive at more "fair" or "objective" assessments. 
 
I'm not trying to get too very carried away by the entire notion.  I don't mean to suggest that we are unpredictable or ridiculously inconsistent in our judgements, nor that we are mere puppets of circumstance.  But I do think we can become more objective once we start recognizing some of the subtle (and not so subtle) factors that can influence our judgements. 
 
I'm sure there are quite a few who will disagree with the entire idea.  Perhaps you think I'm way "over-thinking" this - or way too introspective for my own good!  I just haven't seen too very many responses that take a side either way. 


Edited by progpositivity - November 08 2010 at 18:37
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2010 at 19:45
Originally posted by progpositivity progpositivity wrote:

rogerthat,  I would certainly never want to imply that someone who is less affected by album covers is in any way ignorant or ill-informed.

It was a general rant about rock appreciation and not directed at you.  I have seen people call an album bad because they dislike the artwork, which is certainly not a position I understands.
 

Originally posted by progpositivity progpositivity wrote:

I'd like to provide 2 very easy to recognize examples that I have noticed in myself when it comes to listening to prog music.  (I'm using simple examples in the hopes of better conveying the idea.  There are some more complex, less readily apparent variables that also impact judgements.  I'll be glad to share an example of one of those if anyone is interested...)
 
1) If I listen to a new CD when I have a headache or have the flu, I tend to experience it very differently than if I listen to it when I am feeling fantastic.  If I did not enjoy the CD when I was ill, I will tend to "give it another chance" because I recognize a non-musical factor affected my perception of the CD.
 
2) If I have a stack of 4 CD's to listen to and review, and I am exhausted but feel obligated to listen to the 4 CD's before going to bed, I experience the first one differently than I do the 4th one.  And I experience all of them differently than when I only have 1 CD to listen to, it is one I have heard wonderful things about, and I've been waiting for it to arrive.
 
By recognizing this, I can place the 4th CD "first in line" for the next time I go to review CD's.  This gives it a chance to impress me while I am still fresh.  Sometimes this makes a big difference.  Other times it does not.  

My mood/state of mind can affect how I perceive anything in general. Personally, I try to put off listening to an album if I feel I am not in the right mood for it or not in a position to give full attention.  But isn't this a qualitatively different position from deriving a large part of the appreciation of MUSIC from the artwork that accompanies it? I can honestly say that the colour of the artwork on Meddle had no impact on my liking it. My favourite prog rock album, Red, also has bland artwork.  
 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2010 at 04:32
I think most of  those factors you mention, do affect my first impression.
Especialy i belive timing, is an important factor to me, some periods im into a special kind of music, if i dump into an album, at the right time, ill give it a lot of attention. The same album could come to my ears at another time, where i was a bit fed up with that particular kind of music, or just in a mood for something else, and i would not notice the album much.
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2010 at 20:46
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

My mood/state of mind can affect how I perceive anything in general. Personally, I try to put off listening to an album if I feel I am not in the right mood for it or not in a position to give full attention.  But isn't this a qualitatively different position from deriving a large part of the appreciation of MUSIC from the artwork that accompanies it? I can honestly say that the colour of the artwork on Meddle had no impact on my liking it. My favourite prog rock album, Red, also has bland artwork.  
 
 
Yes - they are two very different things.  It sounds like the artwork doesn't affect your perception of the music at all. 
 
I only latched on to Dean's suggestion of cover artwork as an example because I was getting a lot of responses saying "I'm not swayed by popularity.  I just care about the music".  I felt those responses missed the actual point of my question and I thought some people could relate to cover artwork as an external variable.
 
I've just recently been digging deeper into scientific studies indicating that we often are unaware of variables that contribute to perception and judgment.  The participants are specifically asked whether the variable affected their value judgment and they claim that it did not - when in reality the data strongly suggests that it did - in fact - affect their perception and their judgment. 
 
I'm becoming more aware of how external variables may have affected my perception of albums.  It is a very counter-intuitive idea, one which I tend to want to deny - but one which seems to hold validity nonetheless.  If I dislike hyper-emotional vocals, I tend to allow a hyper-emotional vocalist to adversely affect my perception of the songwriting. 
 
Of course, once I recognize that, I can counteract it by making a conscious effort to be more "fair" to the song.  To attempt to "hear" it in my imagination with a different vocalist to interpret it. 
 
As such, the halo-effect and the pitchfork-effect are more than anecdotal concepts.  They actually have a very scientific underpinning. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2010 at 20:52
Originally posted by tamijo tamijo wrote:

I think most of  those factors you mention, do affect my first impression.
Especialy i belive timing, is an important factor to me, some periods im into a special kind of music, if i dump into an album, at the right time, ill give it a lot of attention. The same album could come to my ears at another time, where i was a bit fed up with that particular kind of music, or just in a mood for something else, and i would not notice the album much.
 
Clap
 
I have come to the same conclusion about myself.  I can reach a "saturation point" for a certain style and (to some extent 'unfairly') penalize a CD that comes my direction as a result.  Had I heard that same CD 6 months prior or 6 months later, I may have perceived it with a more "fresh" outlook.
 
By recognizing this, I can give some of these CD's an opportunity at a different time and place to work its way into my heart.
 
Now this does not mean that I will always change my opinion of the CD of course.  Sometimes I just don't particularly like a CD and I still won't like it no matter whether "Sam I Am" is on a train, in a plane, in a car, near OR far."  Wink
 
Hmm...  Green eggs and Spam.  That could be a good name for a Math Rock song!  LOL
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2010 at 10:59
Originally posted by progpositivity progpositivity wrote:

  If I dislike hyper-emotional vocals, I tend to allow a hyper-emotional vocalist to adversely affect my perception of the songwriting. 
 
Of course, once I recognize that, I can counteract it by making a conscious effort to be more "fair" to the song.  To attempt to "hear" it in my imagination with a different vocalist to interpret it. 
 


Now this is an interesting issue.  I personally don't consider it an external variable because the delivery of the musicians should ideally be in sync with the composition.  I really do dislike overemoting strongly and I would end up enjoying an album less than I might have if the vocals were more appropriate (though it would never by itself make me DISLIKE an album that's otherwise good). I can independently assess the vocalist's technical facilities but that he/she overemotes would continue to remain a problem and as such I don't like the modern precious and cheesy style of emoting that's unfortunately adopted by technically very capable singers.  But as I alluded to above, I consider how well the musicians have performed their parts and, above all, how good are the compositions and if the compositions are great, the vocals won't get in the way of my liking it. I strongly dislike the vocals on Everything Everything's debut Man Alive but like the album for the inventive arrangements. 

This is a bit of a digression but I had a discussion on a somewhat related topic with a fellow Beatles fan.  We agreed that putting together Abbey Road was a more monumental compositional achievement than putting together Red album (strange comparison, I know! LOL ) simply for the sheer diversity of music on the former.  But I said I still preferred Red album for the sake of my listening experience because the musicians rendered the album better and brought out its more exotic emotions very well whereas the Beatles were handicapped in this department. This by itself is an interesting topic:  music discourse ought to focus more on the rendering of the material by the musicians and less on their technical skills.  It goes without saying that more skilled musicians would be in a better position to do justice to the material (which is what Bruford, Wetton and Fripp did) but it's not necessary that they always will and the skills involved in rendering material well are somewhat different from those involved in alternate picking faster than anybody else.  In short, it is wrong to say that a star lineup by itself raises an album's opinion (though it is commonly seen to do so) but a set of musicians who perform the material well can improve your perception of the music and make the compositions seem maybe better than they really are. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2010 at 15:45
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by progpositivity progpositivity wrote:

  If I dislike hyper-emotional vocals, I tend to allow a hyper-emotional vocalist to adversely affect my perception of the songwriting.  Of course, once I recognize that, I can counteract it by making a conscious effort to be more "fair" to the song.  To attempt to "hear" it in my imagination with a different vocalist to interpret it. 
 

Now this is an interesting issue.  I personally don't consider it an external variable because the delivery of the musicians should ideally be in sync with the composition.  
 
Good point.  The delivery of the vocal isn't external to the music altogether. 
 
The style of vocal delivery is, however, a variable independent of the songwriting that has the potential to affect my overall perception to the extent sufficient that - if I reflect upon it honestly - I can see where I could sometimes tend to ascribe a certain ineffectiveness to the songwriting as a result. 
 
There will be obvious situations where the performances are so strong that I cannot deny they are strong even in the presence of hyper-emotive vocal delivery.  But in those instances where things are perhaps slightly questionable - that fuzzy area where I tend to either "easily forgive" a perceived transgression or "hone in upon it and allow it to drive me crazy"... *that* is where independent variables sometimes exert their subconscious effect upon us the most.
 
As you mentioned, it can go the other way as well.  Excellent interpretations and inspired performances can often exert a "halo effect" of sorts - resulting in the listener honestly feeling that the songwriting was stronger than they otherwise may have thought had someone else been the performer.
 
Similarly, a listener's perception of the quality of "production", "engineering", and to a lesser extend "musicianship" can also be affected by the "halo effect" and the "pitchfork effect". 
 
I think "musicianship" is a little more resilient against unconscious variables contributing to a "halo" or "pitchfork" effect.  Musicians and even experienced listeners to some extent can often identify talented musicianship even in music which we don't particularly enjoy. 
 
This is not always the case, however.  For example, in my teenage years, I did not recognize some tasty bass guitar lines in funk music due to stylistic presentation and the more simplified guitar and drum parts.  I just overlooked them altogether!
 
It appears to me that us prog listeners are proud of our independence - even to the point of defiance against people telling us what we "should" and "should not" like or listen to.  We pride ourselves in being active and perceptive music listeners.  So we will immediately tend to bristle at the implication that we could even be subject to a "halo effect" or a "pitchfork effect" in the first place.
 
But studies tend to show that these are very real within the judgements we form during our lives everyday - so I cannot see why I should think it would not also have an application to the perceptions we form when listening to music.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2010 at 00:07
Originally posted by progpositivity progpositivity wrote:

The style of vocal delivery is, however, a variable independent of the songwriting


Not so sure. It applies to say the compositions of Mozart because they have been rendered by so many musicians since the time they were written.  But a songwriter working within a band ought to consider the strengths and weaknesses of himself and his bandmates while writing music, imo, and I believe they do.  Ozzy is not such a great singer and yet how many times have I heard people argue him to be better than the incomparable Dio!  This is probably because Black Sabbath carefully wrote music that utilized his voice well.  Contrast the vocal melodies of Yes and Genesis, soaring and flat in the former and dramatic and expressive in the latter, reflecting the singing style of their respective singers Anderson and Gabriel.  In short, when the vocals are overemotive, I would tend to surmise that they were as the band intended unless I have strong evidence to the contrary and therefore would conclude that the band needs to project emotions better.  I think Dream Theater do want James La Brie to sing in his overemotive style, for instance, because, apparently, John Arch was asked to sing like that when he auditioned for them (before La Brie joined the band) and he didn't like it and passed over the opportunity. Wink

Originally posted by progpositivity progpositivity wrote:


 
This is not always the case, however.  For example, in my teenage years, I did not recognize some tasty bass guitar lines in funk music due to stylistic presentation and the more simplified guitar and drum parts.  I just overlooked them altogether!

 
This brings me to another important issue and the one that in my opinion impacts our perceptions of music most: conditioning.  It pushes us to be biased towards or against some styles of composition or rendering. It is very difficult to overcome the effect of conditioning on our perceptions and in some aspects, it is not desirable to because every listener must have his tastes after all. Wink

My own indifference towards external factors like artwork or the 'motive' of creating music (commercial or tr00) stem from listening to Indian music during my formative years. Only recently has the packaging of music begun to be considered important in India, but it was awful during the years I was growing up. LOL  Just a flimsy piece of paper with a tiny photograph of the singer or composer (usually not very attractive LOL) or, if it was a film soundtrack, a shabby image of a poster of the film.  I could not then start paying as much attention as some rock listeners do to artwork when I started listening to Western music and I honestly believe I am happier for it because music is not necessarily always robbed of its emotions in the live environment (i.e. sans artwork) compared to the studio presentation, so it does not seem to be very important to me.  I also strongly dislike the overdramatic and overwrought quality of operatic vocals because I am so used to the more understated and earthy style of presentation favoured in Indian music. Now, THAT is something I have tried to overcome but to no avail. Ouch


Edited by rogerthat - November 13 2010 at 00:08
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2010 at 21:43
I think Symbolism sometimes plays a big part - that would include album cover artwork - stage costumes - lyrical content - song titles...
For example the first Genesis album I bought was Nursery Crime- loved the cover and subsequently discovered the lyrical concepts of Peter Gabriel to my taste,Dug the weird costumes he wore and delighted that the songs had a literary bent. Loved the music too of course.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2010 at 17:41

I do think you overcomplicated things however lets move onto music and covers I was from a young age facinated by Album covers I wanted to know what the music behind this wonderfull artwork.

I recall the album Tarkus by the great ELP it was a strange mythical creature with more inside the gatefold dipicting some story, the only other illistrations I had seen similar to this were on the front of my fathers SI FI books he was a big fan so I was drawn to this, the music was or at least one side just like nothing I'd heared before my friends were Sabbath, Lizzy, Quo fans but this was way off the scale in the other direction but that,s what exited me.

But it didn't influence my choice of album had to be some other world art work but it was the iceing on the cake if the two came together Brain Salad Surgery Close to the Edge Relayer Houses of the Holy to name a few but colours do have a input to our thinking but is it enough to change my concept on how we hear the music well yes and no.
 
Lets suppose all the above where gray in colour plain gray whould it have an effect I don't think it would  I would be facinated by the choice of colour and the music would speak for itself but clearly marketing men spend a lot of time in colour choice it has a huge influence on everyday items how many people would eat blue chips or a green hamburger but the taste would be the same (or would it) 
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