Greg Lake’s rant against bootlegs and piracy.

JLocke wrote: Tony R wrote: If somebody takes my old broken TV from out my garage, it is still theft. Whether I pursue the matter by reporting the theft is very much up to me. What if your broken TV somehow ended up in a public arena where millions of people could access it? Without any clear indication of who stole it, if anybody even did? Who would you blame, then?

Yeah, but what if the TV was made out of a giant marshmallow and wasn't really broken but just pretending to be broken so that it wouldn't be made into the worlds largest s'more and the arena was really the little pocket thing at the back of a Moleskine notebook where you can keep receipts and business cards and no one could see it because they were actually discarded coconut shells found on a disused sound stage at MGM during an electric storm while the tour guide was pointing out the exact spot where Hedy Lamarr invented frequency-hopping, which was a mere 15 feet away from where Zeppo Marx invented the bomb release clamp used on the B52 bomber that carried the first atomic bomb. Then we'd know who to blame.

topographicbroadways wrote: Tony R wrote: I've spent thousands and thousands of pounds in Marks & Spencer's so tomorrow I am going to my local store to help myself to a couple of suits and maybe a roast chicken and some veggies. Seems fair enough doesn't it? are you serious??? bootleg tapes are not products in the first place so how can they be 'stolen'

Technically, he is right: his performances are his property, and he has the right to control his property's distribution. This is how copyright works; it is not about the artifact itself, but about the content of the artifact: the images or the combination of the notes themselves, not the piece or tape or silicon or vinyl on which these are recorded. The material object, the artifact, is incidental. While the record store or other distibution agent may,  for instance, own many copies of a CD (or "product" if I understand your usage), the artist owns the content of the CD. When money changes hands in a retail purchase, the distributor is paid for the object, and the artist paid for the content.

That said, I think Lake is over the top on this one. That he is right in principle is actually pretty clear to anyone familiar with copyright law. Where he goes amiss is practically, in his failure to pick his battles and in his failure to recognize, as many posters on this string have mentioned, that in practical terms it is actually to his advantage to have low-grade bootlegs out there as these attract a lot of people to further investigations and ultimately probably put more money in his pocket in return for exactly those performances about which he is being so protective.

On another note, and here I have to admit some sympathy with Lake (though for the record I am not a devotee of ELP, merely someone who likes some of their music), it is also possible that bootleg versions might catch a moment that the artist does not want released--a glitch in performance, a slip of the tongue, etc. This is understandable: what they say in public places may be fair game to anyone who is listening or carrying a video camera, but at a paid performance the audience is no longer in a purely public space: they are partaking of someone else's private property--property over which, as mentioned, the artist has the legal right of control.

So, final opinion: he is right in principle, but probably also a little shortsighted.

Dean wrote: Yeah, but what if the TV was made out of a giant marshmallow and wasn't really broken but just pretending to be broken so that it wouldn't be made into the worlds largest s'more and the arena was really the little pocket thing at the back of a Moleskine notebook where you can keep receipts and business cards and no one could see it because they were actually discarded coconut shells found on a disused sound stage at MGM during an electric storm while the tour guide was pointing out the exact spot where Hedy Lamarr invented frequency-hopping, which was a mere 15 feet away from where Zeppo Marx invented the bomb release clamp used on the B52 bomber that carried the first atomic bomb. Then we'd know who to blame.

Heyyyy, that's exactly what I was going to say.


Edited by Slartibartfast - November 08 2010 at 14:55

chopper wrote: 40footwolf wrote: Have you noticed that all of the people who posts these diatribes-the Gene Simmonses and Greg Lakes of the world-are all shambling husks of their former selves, both as people and as musicians?   OK, Lake has put on a few pounds since the ELP heyday, but that hardly makes him a "shambling husk".

TODDLER wrote: Vibrationbaby wrote: I am on Greg's side. I am sick of all this new technology hijacking talent. Me too! It's complete garbage. Everything is for free? Practice for 15 hours a day for many years, write beautiful music, tour with the best,.....suffer as every human being does on a regular job or career however, it's all suddenly free? I know the record companies were harsh in the 70's and 80's but, depriving the musician of making a living? How about bringing in lawyers from professional law firms (not public defenders)  and have them do it for free? What? People think just because it's music, it makes the reality different? No it does not. This is complete garbage.

 

Edited by moshkito - November 08 2010 at 20:23

moshkito wrote: ExittheLemming wrote: (Notwithstanding the copyright laws applicable to the site) If I collected all your posts to date on PA and submitted them to a publisher who decided to publish them and the book became a success, wouldn't you feel cheated if I collected all the royalities?   Depends ... if I am a published writer (I am btw), you could be in violation of my rights ... however, in your board's EULA it does state that I agree to give up my rights on any material I post in here.   The bad part of it all? ... you guys did not add another bit to your EULA ... that the originator of the written material could be a writer and that his ideas and materials could get published elsewhere ... in which case I would tell you, the Prog Archives .... I gave you the first shot! You just buried it under everything else in the board ... and worse ... most of you never read it to even know what it was about!   Law goes both ways ... but you would be in violation of many other things if you did not make a good effort to reach the people you quoted, most of whom would gladly allow you to print it ... it only validates my work even more ... and you think I wouldn't want that?   In general, for all of us posters here ... if you, Prog Archives put together a nice and cohesive book on Progressive Music, you would probably only find one or two people that would not want to be in it. You would also not make any money on the first printing or second. But if you made a million right off the bat Lemming, and were not polite enough to send me a check for a couple of hamburgers, I would say that you are the only one that is really screwed up ... and yeah ... kharma will get you sooner or later ... but I know something about writing ... you can't copy the original ... because you do not know where the "center" is of that original ... so if you want to copy and not quote, in the end, you would be the one looking bad, because you can't explain what you got!   It's the saddest part of this board for me ... most of you guys have no idea, and even if you read something nice and important ... it is ignored and too many of you guys on PA are onto your own trip!   Your ability to put together a book has just ended Lemming! (PA's I mean!)

You're a published writer! What books have you written Moshkito and what were they about?

ExittheLemming wrote: How many published writers are there in the world who do not understand the word 'notwithstanding'?

Well, notwithstanding those who don't...

moshkito wrote: TODDLER wrote: Vibrationbaby wrote: I am on Greg's side. I am sick of all this new technology hijacking talent. Me too! It's complete garbage. Everything is for free? Practice for 15 hours a day for many years, write beautiful music, tour with the best,.....suffer as every human being does on a regular job or career however, it's all suddenly free? I know the record companies were harsh in the 70's and 80's but, depriving the musician of making a living? How about bringing in lawyers from professional law firms (not public defenders)  and have them do it for free? What? People think just because it's music, it makes the reality different? No it does not. This is complete garbage.   Toddler ... The Grateful Dead is not complaining! And neither is Bob Dylan,   In the end, ELP was not progressive and the people i it, were a bunch of goons whose only interest in music was the money and the show ... and I'm sorry ... that is offensive to me, and no different than most pop stars out there showing off their balls or bulges or breasts ... to proove their manhood in music. In the end, it is pathetic and stupid!

POW! That went right over my head!   Over My Head (Robert Calvert)!  I am seriously not sure what you mean by ELP was not progressive? Could you be saying that Keith Emerson's flying piano and ribbon controller or torching of the American flag were show props that were a disgraceful nature to prog? If so, I can more than understand it but, again I am not exactly sure what you mean specifically.

Slartibartfast wrote: Dean wrote: Yeah, but what if the TV was made out of a giant marshmallow and wasn't really broken but just pretending to be broken so that it wouldn't be made into the worlds largest s'more and the arena was really the little pocket thing at the back of a Moleskine notebook where you can keep receipts and business cards and no one could see it because they were actually discarded coconut shells found on a disused sound stage at MGM during an electric storm while the tour guide was pointing out the exact spot where Hedy Lamarr invented frequency-hopping, which was a mere 15 feet away from where Zeppo Marx invented the bomb release clamp used on the B52 bomber that carried the first atomic bomb. Then we'd know who to blame. Heyyyy, that's exactly what I was going to say.

I thought you had hacked his account...

What drives me crazy, and I don't know for sure if other members on P.A. have ever considered this, but what if Carl Palmer gave up the idea of ASIA and just concentrated on a new musical progressive project. It might turn out to be something grand you know? Emerson recorded some solo albums that were sort of seperate from an ELP sound and those solo efforts were really impressive. Changing States contained a few top 40 80's sounding rock songs but, many of the other tracks were truly a breath of fresh air. "The Church" which is reminiscent of ELP in sound still feels beyond that typical ELP approach. It's interesting you see, because he is expanding somehow in this sense to be creative. It's kind of like how Chris Squire revealed new birth on Fish Out Of Water or his new Choir release (which I have yet to hear), but you know these types of artists could be producing underground music for their fans and it would perhaps be steps above ELP or Yes indulgence. It's a shame it does not happen more often as the need of money rules and they always reform a new Yes or Emerson and Lake duo tour to pay the bills. But there is no doubt since they grew in the golden prog era, they could write and record an artistic progressive album and in the end turn out to be more original sounding than some of the Neo-Prog in today's world. These guys should continue on this path and release compositions that do NOT reflect their past. I guess the absence of all this is due to the importance of making money. Yes! I guess it's all about money in the end. They can't afford it and possibly almost go under whenever they go the distance for a solo project.