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Textbook 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
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Points: 3281
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 Posted: September 06 2010 at 16:00 |
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Ivan: Incidentally, you seem like a big fool with all this Pol Pot stuff because I clearly remember you getting all upset and crying when people pointed out that many of history's great villains were religious, saying that just because some theists had been bad it didn't mean anything. Here you are implying the same thing about anti-religious people.
Edited by Textbook - September 06 2010 at 16:01
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
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Posted: September 06 2010 at 16:01 |
 Textbook wrote:
Ivan: For the millionth time, I can't give you any evidence that god doesn't exist just as you can't give any evidence that he does. What I can say is that it is illogical and irrational to believe that standing in a particular building on Sunday mornings singing a little song somehow means you will enjoy an eternal paradise after death. Such beliefs make a mockery of life and the functionality of your brain. The problem with entering into any serious debate with you about this is that I am harsher than most non-believers in that I think theist's minds don't work properly so I'm skeptical about how far you can even understand or reason before hitting an insane GOD EXISTS BECAUSE HE EXISTS roadblock.
And another point- Ivan, how can you get offended when people call your beliefs absurd. Do you even understand your own position? Even if I put myself in a theist's shoes, I would concede.that my position was absurd because it is this absurdity that creates the space for faith, the belief in something that does not seem to be true. Were belief in god logical and sympathetic, nobody would talk about faith. It is the very fact that belief in god seems foolish and absurd that creates the requirement for faith, |
Again, it's absurd because you believe it's absurd...Nice try.
Iván
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
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Points: 3281
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Posted: September 06 2010 at 16:03 |
Ivan: It's getting to the point where I have to suggest that you are actually stupid. I don't say that in an infammatory or insulting way but more as an honest expression of my observation of you. I say it in the hopes that it will shock you into attempting to actually defend your position and respond to arguments against it instead of just restating it and running away from the arguments.
Please respond to this: "Even a theists must conclude that belief in god MUST be absurd, otherwise there would be no test of faith."
Edited by Textbook - September 06 2010 at 16:05
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
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Points: 5195
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Posted: September 06 2010 at 16:04 |
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I don't think that it's stupidity - which actually makes it worse, and less forgivable.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: September 06 2010 at 16:05 |
Textbook wrote:
Ivan: Incidentally, you seem like a big fool with all this Pol Pot stuff because I clearly remember you getting all upset and crying when people pointed out that many of history's great villains were religious, saying that just because some theists had been bad it didn't mean anything. Here you are implying the same thing about anti-religious people. |
Never denied the crimes of the church, even the Pope asked pardon for Church sins.
Have you read my earlier posts?
As a fact you haven't read my latesr posts, I said to Mike "I know that you and other atheists don't agree with this methods, but history proves some do"
I'm implying nothing, I am pointing what atheist Governments did and that's history as much as Inquisition is, the difference is that Inquisition happened centuries ago, and this Atheist Governments comitted their crimes in the XX Century and still do it today.
Iván
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
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Posted: September 06 2010 at 16:08 |
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I think many of his responses suggest somebody who either doesn't or can't read properly and who doesn't think very well. I understand picking on Ivan personally may be seen as taboo and irrelevant to some, but the thing is right now he's representing religion in this debate and he's doing it abysmally. Understanding why he does it so poorly might enable us to move on.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: September 06 2010 at 16:09 |
Textbook wrote:
Ivan: It's getting to the point where I have to suggest that you are actually stupid. I don't say that in an infammatory or insulting way but more as an honest expression of my observation of you. I say it in the hopes that it will shock you into attempting to actually defend your position and respond to arguments against it instead of just restating it and running away from the arguments.
Please respond to this: "Even a theists must conclude that belief in god MUST be absurd, otherwise there would be no test of faith." |
Won't honour this attack with a reply.
Iván
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Textbook
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Posted: September 06 2010 at 16:10 |
You don't need to reply, I just wanted you to know that's the opinion you're causing me to form. It's up to you whether you now attempt to conduct yourself in this thread in an intellectually sound way.
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Mr ProgFreak
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Posted: September 06 2010 at 16:13 |
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You also said quote "Mike, guys like Dawkins and even you have said that the wish Religion
will vanish some day, what better way to make it than banning religuion", and you know very well that I would never want to ban religion or force people to abandon it. You're being dishonest, childish, arrogant and humorless.
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Any Colour You Like
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 15 2009
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Points: 12294
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Posted: September 06 2010 at 16:16 |
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Eh, Religion has had more than enough time shaping the Earth, most refer to this period of History as the "Dark Ages".
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: September 06 2010 at 16:17 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
You also said quote "Mike, guys like Dawkins and even you have said that the wish Religion will vanish some day, what better way to make it than banning religuion", and you know very well that I would never want to ban religion or force people to abandon it. You're being dishonest, childish, arrogant and humorless.
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Place the complete quuote...It ended:
Ivan wrote:
"Mike, guys like Dawkins and even you have said that the wish Religion will vanish some day, what better way to make it than banning religuion Probably you don't agree with this methods, but some atheists do and history proves it |
So I liberate you from this methods.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 06 2010 at 16:20
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
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Points: 34550
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Posted: September 06 2010 at 16:18 |
Any Colour You Like wrote:
Eh, Religion has had more than enough time shaping the Earth, most refer to this period of History as the "Dark Ages".
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 Oops? Did we do that? I know all religion is bad, but this is all I had. Sorry to all the other religions out there I couldn't insult
Edited by JJLehto - September 06 2010 at 16:19
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Mr ProgFreak
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Posted: September 06 2010 at 16:19 |
^^ Well how generous of you. 
Edited by Mr ProgFreak - September 06 2010 at 16:20
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: September 06 2010 at 16:22 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
^^ Well how generous of you. |
Not generous, only saying what is true in my opinion.You are not guilty for what atheists do in some countries as much as I'm not guilty for what Christianity did in the dark ages.
Iván
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JJLehto
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Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
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Points: 34550
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Posted: September 06 2010 at 16:25 |
JJLehto wrote:
Any Colour You Like wrote:
Eh, Religion has had more than enough time shaping the Earth, most refer to this period of History as the "Dark Ages".
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Oops? Did we do that?
I know all religion is bad, but this is all I had.
Sorry to all the other religions out there I couldn't insult
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Edited by JJLehto - September 06 2010 at 16:25
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
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Points: 3281
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Posted: September 06 2010 at 16:25 |
MrPF: It's interesting that you say "childish" because I was talking to some other people about religion the other day and we identified that the most common trait amongst believers was childishness. It surprised me because I wouldn't have guessed that, but "childish" came up time and time again when describing theists we knew.
And then I think about what we were saying before about teaching religion to children. Is there a link here? Perhaps by giving unprovable "knowledge" to a child, some part of their mind is frozen in time. To the child's mind, god is a fact. Not a "fact" but an actual fact. A fact which does not have the evidence facts normally require. This rock sold belief in fairytales prevents them from maturing intellectually in the same way as others.
I mean look at that Zappa Crossfire debate you posted the other day. Laughton's behaviour throughout the debate is extremely childish. Theists often sulk and name call and deliver non sequitirs and do things like this:
Atheist: Please don't attempt to persuade me to believe in god using bible quotations as I reject the validity of the bible.
Theist: Ah, but you must believe in god because of this here bible quotation.
A: Look, putting aside the fact that that was a silly thing to do after what i just said, for me to be persuaded by that bible quotation would make me absolutely mad because I just said I reject the validity of the bible.
T: Ah but you can't reject the validity of the bible.
A: Why?
T: Um...
A: Why?
T: Because.
A: Seriously, why.
T: It was written by god.
A: I don't believe that.
T: Well it was.
A: Prove it.
T: I can't.
A: Well tell me why you believe it.
T: Because I was told it was.
A: That's it?
T: That's it.
A: That's pathetic.
T: I know you are but what am I?
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
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Points: 5195
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Posted: September 06 2010 at 16:25 |
Iván wrote:
Not generous, only saying what is true in my opinion.You are not
guilty for what atheists do in some countries as much as I'm not guilty
for what Christianity did in the dark ages.
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See, this is a flawed analogy. Atheism does not lead to violence. The Bible can, and has in the past.
Edited by Mr ProgFreak - September 06 2010 at 16:26
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CCVP
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Joined: September 15 2007
Location: Vitória, Brasil
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Points: 7971
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Posted: September 06 2010 at 16:27 |
Any Colour You Like wrote:
Eh, Religion has had more than enough time shaping the Earth, most refer to this period of History as the "Dark Ages".
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That actually happened because the barbaric invasions threw Europe into chaos and the only thing that could actually hold them back was religion. Many of teh times Rome was sacked, the Churches were the only safe haven because the christianized barbarians would not attack them and the Pope could actually stop one of the sacks. The Dark Ages happened because most of the civilized world started to organize itself like the warring tribes of the north, what did not allow much civilationary develpment to happen. If anything, religion actually helped the world to be pulled out of the Dark Ages because, by the time The Church centralized the power of Europe in itself, it allowed knowlege to be built on something instead of being destroyed over some petty war. Just compare the art of the low, the high and the late Middle Ages and you will see what I mean.
Edited by CCVP - September 06 2010 at 16:28
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19557
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Posted: September 06 2010 at 16:29 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Iván wrote:
Not generous, only saying what is true in my opinion.You are not guilty for what atheists do in some countries as much as I'm not guilty for what Christianity did in the dark ages.
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See, this is a flawed analogy. Atheism does not lead to violence. The Bible can, and has in the past. |
Oh yes, countries where atheism was or is mandatory as USSR, China, Cambodia, etc were very peaceful with religious people. 
Iván
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
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Points: 3281
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Posted: September 06 2010 at 16:32 |
Ivan: See, this is what we're talking about. Those conflicts were not religious, they were political and economic. What Mike is saying is that people do not wage military campaigns in the name of atheism.
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