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Slartibartfast 
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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 Posted: July 25 2010 at 17:26 |
 Andre de Gotha wrote:
I think is better to think by myself, I will choose Free Will
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Yes, but is choosing free will really a way to choose your purpose clear?
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: July 25 2010 at 17:49 |
Textbook wrote:
In NZ, a 15 year old boy has just survived a 16 storey fall. Says one involved in the accident, "It's incredible that he survived. God must have been with him."
What does this mean exactly? That everybody who has died after falling 16 storeys (or less) was abandoned and rejected by god? And why is god dropping people he's watching over out of 16 storey buildings anyway? To my mind this is just thoughtless grasping at reassurance and order. |
The miracle is defined by Catholic Church (The religion I can talk about) as:
- A supernatuiral wonder
- Unknown cause
- Exceptional
So, the natural and unexceptional thing is that a person who falls from a 16th floor will die.
But for any unknown cause, God decides to make a wonder, maybe he has plans for that person or the kid asked the intervention of a Saint.
I'm not saying that this case is a miracle, the Church take this cases extremely seriously and an a very careful and exhaustive investigation has to take place, it may take, years, even decades to accept a miracle.
If God made miracles in each and every case, we would be immortals.
DisgruntledPorcupine wrote:
Why are people trying to bring the topic back? |
There are more than 30,000 threads, why do some peope insist that we should close one thread in the General Forum section that we enjoy?
You have at least 29,999 threads to chose from, it's easy not to visit his one.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 25 2010 at 17:50
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: July 25 2010 at 18:33 |
So would you agree that every time a miracle fails to occur and the person dies, god has decided to abandon this person and let them die?
I find miracles incredibly specious reasoning anyway. If it's good, god did it. If it's bad, he didn't. Or he did but god can do bad things and still be all good. Or something.
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DisgruntledPorcupine
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 16 2010
Location: Thunder Bay CAN
Status: Offline
Points: 4395
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Posted: July 25 2010 at 18:38 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
DisgruntledPorcupine wrote:
Why are people trying to bring the topic back? |
There are more than 30,000 threads, why do some peope insist that we should close one thread in the General Forum section that we enjoy?
You have at least 29,999 threads to chose from, it's easy not to visit his one.
Iván |
I didn't mean to close it. I just liked the conversation we were just having better.  
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: July 25 2010 at 18:47 |
Textbook wrote:
So would you agree that every time a miracle fails to occur and the person dies, god has decided to abandon this person and let them die?
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No, it's simply that we can't understand his plans for each person.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 25 2010 at 18:47
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: July 25 2010 at 18:53 |
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But if he made the plan then he did decide to let them die. Right?
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
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Posted: July 25 2010 at 19:08 |
Is this thread still going? 
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CinemaZebra
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 13 2010
Location: Ancient Rome
Status: Offline
Points: 6795
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Posted: July 25 2010 at 19:12 |
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Yup. Mangos.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: July 25 2010 at 22:16 |
Textbook wrote:
But if he made the plan then he did decide to let them die. Right? |
Everybody has to die in a determined moment.
Iván
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: July 26 2010 at 03:22 |
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^ That's another vital issue on which Theists and Atheists disagree. I think that the world is completely random. Coincidences happen, but that does not mean that there is an intention behind them.
Pat Robertson said that the earthquake on Haiti was God's punishment for century old transgressions (I know that you disagree with Pat Robertson, Iván). Now, don't you agree that whenever an earthquake occurs it's infinitely more likely that it's because we live on a planet that has a molten core, with plate tectonics etc. than the idea that some intelligence is causing these earthquakes? Any Theist who believes that earthquakes and other natural disasters are caused by God would have to explain to me why earthquakes usually occur near fault lines, instead of near the most sinful places of the world.
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: July 26 2010 at 05:23 |
Theists cause so many problems for themselves with "god's plan". "God's plan" was originally just something said by the church in order to placate the masses regarding their crummy lot in life. The church leaders live in nice houses with nice clothes and food and servants and you and your family of 12 live in a ditch on half a potato because it was "god's plan". It was just something said to shut the downtrodden up.
But now all it does is cause theists headaches.
If we allow for a deity that does not have some sort of locked down plan but allows for possibility and choice, then a lot of logical problems are solved.
But many traditional theists cling to the "plan". And here's the real problem.
If god is infallible and his plan is certain, it cannot be deviated from. Everyone who is going to hell was always going to hell because he planned for them to. There are no sinners and no saints. We are all automatons. He even controls Satan in this view because Satan is part of the plan (everything is) making Satan a sort of mask god puts on when he behaves maliciously. So apart from the huge and embarrassing problems caused by this which destroy virtue and sin, why would god even do this? There is nothing to love or even observe because we are all hollow extensions of his will doing what is planned.
And if he miraculously saves the person who falls 16 storeys because he has a plan for them, why would he even drop them 16 storeys in the first place?
God becomes a perverse madman when we give him a plan. Drop it and all sorts of problems are solved.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: July 26 2010 at 06:25 |
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^ Agreed. It should also be noted that most Theists usually claim that God gave us a free will, and that we should use it to try to choose good over evil. If everything was pre-determined, like you said, it would pretty much negate the whole concept.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: July 26 2010 at 06:47 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Trademark
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 21 2006
Location: oHIo
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
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Posted: July 26 2010 at 11:12 |
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CinemaZebra
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 13 2010
Location: Ancient Rome
Status: Offline
Points: 6795
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Posted: July 26 2010 at 11:31 |
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And I like radiator noodles.
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Trademark
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 21 2006
Location: oHIo
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
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Posted: July 26 2010 at 12:21 |
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^^ I won't worry about you until you start worshiping them
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NecronCommander
Special Collaborator
Prog Metal Team
Joined: September 17 2009
Location: Madison, WI
Status: Offline
Points: 16122
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Posted: July 26 2010 at 12:27 |
Here's my spiel on the free will debate:
I'm Catholic, and I believe in God (even though my views on the nature of God differ somewhat from the Church's), and I also believe in free will. As Mike stated before, the idea of free will and the Church teaching that God is all knowing and that he has a plan for us is a contradiction. If God had a predetermined plan for us, or if he was truly all knowing, our life's path would be laid out before him, and we would be powerless to change it, in effect rendering our notion of free will moot. But, I believe in free will. My personal solution to this problem is that I believe, therefore, that the other side of the equation is not true. I don't believe that God is truly all-knowing, I believe that he chooses to limit himself so that we might have free will and the ability to choose our own life path. I also believe that God does indeed have a plan for each and every one of us, but it's really up to us to choose whether or not we follow it. It's what God would like us to do, but we have free will, and we don't necessarily have to follow his plan. As to what his plan actually is for me or others, I have no idea. I really don't talk to God much at all.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: July 26 2010 at 13:03 |
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Insecure? Well, if it floats your boat.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: July 26 2010 at 17:18 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Pat Robertson said that the earthquake on Haiti was God's punishment for century old transgressions (I know that you disagree with Pat Robertson, Iván). Now, don't you agree that whenever an earthquake occurs it's infinitely more likely that it's because we live on a planet that has a molten core, with plate tectonics etc. than the idea that some intelligence is causing these earthquakes? Any Theist who believes that earthquakes and other natural disasters are caused by God would have to explain to me why earthquakes usually occur near fault lines, instead of near the most sinful places of the world.
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Please Mike, you're quoting Pat Robertson, one of the most fundamentalist preachers there are, I believe whoever says God causes an earthquake to punish, is just an idiot and a bigot, because if his plan was to punish bad people, he would be killing at least some good people..
Textbook wrote:
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But now all it does is cause theists headaches.
If we allow for a deity that does not have some sort of locked down plan but allows for possibility and choice, then a lot of logical problems are solved.
But many traditional theists cling to the "plan". And here's the real problem.. |
As far as i know, God's plans are salvation for all the people, but we have free will, so we can decide to reject salvation.
That's why we believe that people raised on a different religion can be saved if they follow THEIR OWN conscience and seek for God,...Because nobody is responsible for the place or family in which he/she is born.
Now I believe that in transcendental things like being born or dying, there's a plan, nobody dies a day before it's their turn.
Now, I'm guessing about miracles and only can accept what the church says:
- A supernatural wonder
- Unknown cause
- Exceptional
Maybe there's a plan for a saint or for a person that is going to do something exceptional, but there...I'm guessing. Don't ask me why God decides to make a miracle for determined person and not for anoither...I simply can't speak for God.
Iván
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Vibrationbaby
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 13 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 6898
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Posted: July 27 2010 at 14:17 |
James wrote:
Is this thread still going?
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As long as I am alive this thread will still be going. More children have to go to hockey practice than to church.
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