For my Libertarian friends

JJLehto wrote: We're lucky that we can be so worldly here, llama. In terms of real life application, as harsh as it may sound (coming from a liberal I know!) can one really think about foreign countries and the good it will produce for them?If I was elected into office tomorrow, am I representing India? Am I representing a state in China? No. So, I guess the simple answer is, "It sucks, but that's how it goes"Fine, I can live with it....however, I want to see things recover in a few years. We've seen jobless recovers, job LOSS recoveries. And now the recession is over but unemployment still near 10%. I HOPE the recovery will trickle to the main street soon from wall street and if so then all is good for another 10-20 years, but if there are no job to return to, how will we recover? What jobs will their be in 10 years? Are we all supposed to work sh*t jobs/ start our own business/ become engineers?

I am a bit late for the discussion .... but I'll join nonetheless!

I agree with your first paragraph: no country should be worrying about people in other country that's that country's responsibility.

Now, outsourcing helps your country. How? By providing cheaper goods...

I'll tell you the experience of my country Venezuela. Here democracy started about 50 years ago after a series of military dictatorships (and some sort of anarchy before that)and the people that fought for its establishment were former communists and started to develop "social-democratic" ideas... now their justification for democratic legitimacy was that the dictators and other countries (particularly the US) were keeping all the rent product of the oil industry for themselves without giving anything to the "starving people".

Then the state started to apply policies based in new ideas to incentive education, national production and 100% employment.. among this policies are:
*Lots of public spending (including literally giving away money)
*Complete nationalization of the oil industry
*Nationalization of public services: phone, electricity, water, etc.
*Exchange control
*Enormous taxes and lots of prohibitions towards importing goods and outsourcing

This was, of course, unsustainable in any way... but meanwhile the price of oil was raising enormously (due to wars on the middle east), Venezuela seemed like a paradise: people payed no taxes, gas was cheaper than water and there were lots of money in the streets... this because, the country started to contract an enormous debt to be able to maintain the currency overvalued and people employed... eventually the debt became so big and the economic issues so incontrollable that:
*The oil industry became less efficient every day (even though it had ever increasing number of employees)
*Phone and electricity started to fail in a daily basis
*Concerning this particular subject: the supermarkets were empty (true there was no outsourcing and no foreign country stealing jobs... but nobody was producing in the country either because it was too expensive!)
* Unemployment reached 60%!!!

During the 80s politicians started to realize that you cannot run or control an economy: you can either obstruct it or let it flow... so they started to decrease regulations and public spending, in that moment people started to get angry because they stopped getting their "free lunch", revolts started and there were two failed coup d'etat (one of them headed by our current president Hugo Chavez).

People then voted for Chavez in 1998 so he could reverse the liberalization of the economy and start to wildly spend again. And so he did: now 90% of industry belongs to the state, it is almost illegal to outsource and the crazy spending and giving away money made us the 3rd country with the highest inflation. Now we are worst than before!
*Now if you find milk, flour, eggs, etc. in the supermarket you are lucky.
*Businesses are closing (+transnationals leaving), this means more unemployment.
*More than 80% of unemployment.
*And trying to start business is almost impossible for one reasons: too expensive (product of the enormous taxes for that and the almost impossible task of trying to outsource or import goods).

Please don't make the same mistakes!

Yes  ProgressiveAttic, thank you for sharing this.  The media here in America likes Hugo too much for us to hear this side of the Venezuela story.

UndercoverBoy wrote: Epignosis wrote: JJLehto wrote: I guess which matters more? The livelihood of someone in China or someone here? We can talk about it all we want but as a leader, I'd think your focus is limited by it. As for being personal, my situation is not the only, many others in this country are in the same boat, you seem to have alluded that you were also in that boat. It's not that I want to help ME, want to help us..but c'mon, its easier to use my persona example. Fine, I guess things will somehow be righted, and everything will be good for another 10 to 20 years until the next recession comes, then repeat. Economies tend to be cyclic.  The irony is that people start to demand governmental intervention, and that serves to make things worse, not better.  That's all. I hope your father finds suitable and profitable employment soon, and that your mother maintains hers. But God forbid the government step in and help, because even when in a situation of protecting workers' rights Socialism is always t3h satenz!  I mean, FDR's New Deal?  Clement Atlee's socializing of major industries and utilities?  The quality of living in Sweden and Denmark?  Horrifying stuff.

You are already a socialist. Why would you criticize the New Deal?

manofmystery wrote: Yes  ProgressiveAttic, thank you for sharing this.  The media here in America likes Hugo too much for us to hear this side of the Venezuela story.

Milk literally just shot out of my noise. Yeah, the American press is totally Chavez's lapdog. Absolutely.

Epignosis wrote: UndercoverBoy wrote: Epignosis wrote: JJLehto wrote: I guess which matters more? The livelihood of someone in China or someone here? We can talk about it all we want but as a leader, I'd think your focus is limited by it. As for being personal, my situation is not the only, many others in this country are in the same boat, you seem to have alluded that you were also in that boat. It's not that I want to help ME, want to help us..but c'mon, its easier to use my persona example. Fine, I guess things will somehow be righted, and everything will be good for another 10 to 20 years until the next recession comes, then repeat. Economies tend to be cyclic.  The irony is that people start to demand governmental intervention, and that serves to make things worse, not better.  That's all. I hope your father finds suitable and profitable employment soon, and that your mother maintains hers. But God forbid the government step in and help, because even when in a situation of protecting workers' rights Socialism is always t3h satenz!  I mean, FDR's New Deal?  Clement Atlee's socializing of major industries and utilities?  The quality of living in Sweden and Denmark?  Horrifying stuff. You are already a socialist. Why would you criticize the New Deal?

Epignosis wrote: ProgressiveAttic wrote: JJLehto wrote: We're lucky that we can be so worldly here, llama. In terms of real life application, as harsh as it may sound (coming from a liberal I know!) can one really think about foreign countries and the good it will produce for them?If I was elected into office tomorrow, am I representing India? Am I representing a state in China? No. So, I guess the simple answer is, "It sucks, but that's how it goes"Fine, I can live with it....however, I want to see things recover in a few years. We've seen jobless recovers, job LOSS recoveries. And now the recession is over but unemployment still near 10%. I HOPE the recovery will trickle to the main street soon from wall street and if so then all is good for another 10-20 years, but if there are no job to return to, how will we recover? What jobs will their be in 10 years? Are we all supposed to work sh*t jobs/ start our own business/ become engineers? I am a bit late for the discussion .... but I'll join nonetheless! I agree with your first paragraph: no country should be worrying about people in other country that's that country's responsibility. Now, outsourcing helps your country. How? By providing cheaper goods... I'll tell you the experience of my country Venezuela. Here democracy started about 50 years ago after a series of military dictatorships (and some sort of anarchy before that)and the people that fought for its establishment were former communists and started to develop "social-democratic" ideas... now their justification for democratic legitimacy was that the dictators and other countries (particularly the US) were keeping all the rent product of the oil industry for themselves without giving anything to the "starving people". Then the state started to apply policies based in new ideas to incentive education, national production and 100% employment.. among this policies are: *Lots of public spending (including literally giving away money) *Complete nationalization of the oil industry *Nationalization of public services: phone, electricity, water, etc. *Exchange control *Enormous taxes and lots of prohibitions towards importing goods and outsourcing This was, of course, unsustainable in any way... but meanwhile the price of oil was raising enormously (due to wars on the middle east), Venezuela seemed like a paradise: people payed no taxes, gas was cheaper than water and there were lots of money in the streets... this because, the country started to contract an enormous debt to be able to maintain the currency overvalued and people employed... eventually the debt became so big and the economic issues so incontrollable that: *The oil industry became less efficient every day (even though it had ever increasing number of employees) *Phone and electricity started to fail in a daily basis *Concerning this particular subject: the supermarkets were empty (true there was no outsourcing and no foreign country stealing jobs... but nobody was producing in the country either because it was too expensive!) * Unemployment reached 60%!!! During the 80s politicians started to realize that you cannot run or control an economy: you can either obstruct it or let it flow... so they started to decrease regulations and public spending, in that moment people started to get angry because they stopped getting their "free lunch", revolts started and there were two failed coup d'etat (one of them headed by our current president Hugo Chavez). People then voted for Chavez in 1998 so he could reverse the liberalization of the economy and start to wildly spend again. And so he did: now 90% of industry belongs to the state, it is almost illegal to outsource and the crazy spending and giving away money made us the 3rd country with the highest inflation. Now we are worst than before! *Now if you find milk, flour, eggs, etc. in the supermarket you are lucky. *Businesses are closing (+transnationals leaving), this means more unemployment. *More than 80% of unemployment. *And trying to start business is almost impossible for one reasons: too expensive (product of the enormous taxes for that and the almost impossible task of trying to outsource or import goods). Please don't make the same mistakes! Thank you for sharing this with us.  It is a true warning.

Or a very case-specific example of a country on the global periphery with a revenue-generating resource, political capital to be made from state action and impoverished sectors of the population with legitimate needs that were addressed in an overzealous manner.

UndercoverBoy wrote: Epignosis wrote: UndercoverBoy wrote: Epignosis wrote: JJLehto wrote: I guess which matters more? The livelihood of someone in China or someone here? We can talk about it all we want but as a leader, I'd think your focus is limited by it. As for being personal, my situation is not the only, many others in this country are in the same boat, you seem to have alluded that you were also in that boat. It's not that I want to help ME, want to help us..but c'mon, its easier to use my persona example. Fine, I guess things will somehow be righted, and everything will be good for another 10 to 20 years until the next recession comes, then repeat. Economies tend to be cyclic.  The irony is that people start to demand governmental intervention, and that serves to make things worse, not better.  That's all. I hope your father finds suitable and profitable employment soon, and that your mother maintains hers. But God forbid the government step in and help, because even when in a situation of protecting workers' rights Socialism is always t3h satenz!  I mean, FDR's New Deal?  Clement Atlee's socializing of major industries and utilities?  The quality of living in Sweden and Denmark?  Horrifying stuff. You are already a socialist. Why would you criticize the New Deal? Yes, I know that the New Deal was not technically "Socialism," and I'm not exactly a fan of Corporatism either as you would guess.  But I think it proves that every instance of government intervention is not always evil.

I never said that every instance of government intervention is evil.  Please pay close attention.


Edited by Epignosis - June 23 2010 at 22:24

Franklin Delano Roosevelt wrote: The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation; A job isn't a right.  It's a thing you earn. The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation; A wage isn't a right.  It's a thing you earn.  Neat though that recreation is included here.  All work and no play I guess. The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living; The government can't determine this.  Unless it can make me buy potatoes. The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad; Based on the previous declaration, this would mean freedom from any competition. The right of every family to a decent home; A home isn't a right.  It must be secured. The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health; I've discussed this elsewhere. The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment; This is idealistic and silly.  Most of us will likely experience old age, sickness, accidents, and unemployment, and will have to cope.  Is the government's role really to offer "protection from the economic fears" of this sh*t?  By this rhetoric, long-time smokers and poor drivers should get government handouts! The right to a good education. Again, education isn't a right either, but sh*t, the government provides one, and mostly it sucks.  So meh.  Like health care, I've said my piece about this elsewhere. All of these rights spell security. All of these "rights" spell "politicians in my ass."  No thanks.

Also, this, from Wikipedia:

Wikipedia wrote: Roosevelt's stated justification was that the "political rights" guaranteed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights had "proved inadequate to assure us equality in the pursuit of happiness." Roosevelt's remedy was to create an "economic bill of rights" which would guarantee: A job with a living wage Freedom from unfair competition and monopolies A home Medical care Education Social security

A government that can guarantee all that is a government strong enough to take away that which I hold dear.  Again, no thanks.

^^

Best post I've seen in weeks, Rob.


Edited by thellama73 - June 23 2010 at 22:48

Captain Clutch wrote: this whole thread is just Americans proving the "paranoid conservative" American stereotype

You can stereotype me all you want, just keep government out of my way.