Greg Lake, Greatest Prog Bassist!

Helmut Koellen was the greatest prog bass player

for me,  greatest simply means that player that does the most for me, in terms of appreciating his playing, and how listening to affects me in a positive way emotionally, mentally, and  making me feel great and happier in general about things, also possibly making me feel inspired or motivated in some way
           there could be a million different "greatest" players out there depending upon the listener

I am.

presdoug wrote: for me,  greatest simply means that player that does the most for me, in terms of appreciating his playing, and how listening to affects me in a positive way emotionally, mentally, and  making me feel great and happier in general about things, also possibly making me feel inspired or motivated in some way            there could be a million different "greatest" players out there depending upon the listener

Jannick Top, bro

topographicbroadways wrote: presdoug wrote: for me,  greatest simply means that player that does the most for me, in terms of appreciating his playing, and how listening to affects me in a positive way emotionally, mentally, and  making me feel great and happier in general about things, also possibly making me feel inspired or motivated in some way           there could be a million different "greatest" players out there depending upon the listener This is correct, one mans Geddy Lee is another mans Lemmy, not dissing on Lemmy but he's not a master musician lol

This.

BaldJean wrote: are you familiar with Stanley Clarke? Jaco Pastorius? Helmut Hattler? Colin Hodgkinson? Peter Kühmstedt? Gerald Luciano Hartwig? Matz Steinke? I could continue this list endlessly....

I know most of the names on that list and none of them are prog, they're all Jazz/Fusion/Blues bassists...so what about  Albert Lazlo??
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To Open Post:
Chris Squire and Geddy Lee weren't exactly prog-Mozarts, but I'll grant the opening post that they weren't terrible either.  As slightly above mediocre as Jonas Reingold is in composing Karmakanic, his proficiency on the bass and ability to groove effectively are superior to any of the opening post.  As a bassist, I like to believe the best bassist is the least noticed bassist.

BaldJean wrote: Fusionman wrote: BaldJean wrote: are you familiar with Stanley Clarke? Jaco Pastorius? Helmut Hattler? Colin Hodgkinson? Peter Kühmstedt? Gerald Luciano Hartwig? Matz Steinke? I could continue this list endlessly.... I know most of the names on that list and none of them are prog, they're all Jazz/Fusion/Blues bassists...so what about  Albert Lazlo?? --- To Open Post: Chris Squire and Geddy Lee weren't exactly prog-Mozarts, but I'll grant the opening post that they weren't terrible either.  As slightly above mediocre as Jonas Reingold is in composing Karmakanic, his proficiency on the bass and ability to groove effectively are superior to any of the opening post.  As a bassist, I like to believe the best bassist is the least noticed bassist. ahem. have you forgotten that jazz-rock is a sub-genre of prog? of the bass players named all played with bands that are in the archives. to name two other great bass players: Dave King and Eberhard Weber. both played with the United Jazz and Rock Ensemble, but also with other artists who are in the archives, like Snowball and Embryo (King) or Volker Kriegel (Weber)

I think Jazz-Fusion is lumped in with Prog-rock because of their coexistence and propensity to have fans which delve in both genres.  If anything...Prog-rock should be a sub-genre of Jazz-Rock considering the chronology of Music.  They inhabit the same space, but are entirely different experiences.

That being said; the actual composition and execution of the two styles is entirely different.  Jazz-Fusion as iconified (in my opinion) by 'Weather Report - I sing the body electric' displays freeform elements constructing a story accompanied by persistent improvisation.  Prog rock on the other hand communicates a message through arranging compositions in a way which central themes (both melodically and potentially lyrically) are expressed recurrently.  If you'd like to compare say... Return to Forever - Romantic Warrior to Banco De Mutuo Soccorsoro - Darwin* there's again a huge difference.  Banco seeks to express its self from central themes in which music paints the emotions...where as RTF simply builds an enchanting environment. 

I think you'd be very hard pressed to find a well accepted Jazz-Fusion album which has a central theme which is reiterated throughout the albums.  I think you'd be equally hard pressed to find a prog album which paints an image of a scene without granting a position on it.


Edited by Fusionman - June 19 2010 at 07:44

It is very much a matter of taste. As well as Emerson's complex moves Lake had to cope with a turbo charged Carl Palmer which must have been a nightmare for a bassist! The fact that he coped says a lot for his ability.

cstack3 wrote: Fusionman wrote: BaldJean wrote: Fusionman wrote: BaldJean wrote: are you familiar with Stanley Clarke? Jaco Pastorius? Helmut Hattler? Colin Hodgkinson? Peter Kühmstedt? Gerald Luciano Hartwig? Matz Steinke? I could continue this list endlessly.... I know most of the names on that list and none of them are prog, they're all Jazz/Fusion/Blues bassists...so what about  Albert Lazlo?? --- To Open Post: Chris Squire and Geddy Lee weren't exactly prog-Mozarts, but I'll grant the opening post that they weren't terrible either.  As slightly above mediocre as Jonas Reingold is in composing Karmakanic, his proficiency on the bass and ability to groove effectively are superior to any of the opening post.  As a bassist, I like to believe the best bassist is the least noticed bassist. ahem. have you forgotten that jazz-rock is a sub-genre of prog? of the bass players named all played with bands that are in the archives. to name two other great bass players: Dave King and Eberhard Weber. both played with the United Jazz and Rock Ensemble, but also with other artists who are in the archives, like Snowball and Embryo (King) or Volker Kriegel (Weber) I think Jazz-Fusion is lumped in with Prog-rock because of their coexistence and propensity to have fans which delve in both genres.  If anything...Prog-rock should be a sub-genre of Jazz-Rock considering the chronology of Music.  They inhabit the same space, but are entirely different experiences. That being said; the actual composition and execution of the two styles is entirely different.  Jazz-Fusion as iconified (in my opinion) by 'Weather Report - I sing the body electric' displays freeform elements constructing a story accompanied by persistent improvisation.  Prog rock on the other hand communicates a message through arranging compositions in a way which central themes (both melodically and potentially lyrically) are expressed recurrently.  If you'd like to compare say... Return to Forever - Romantic Warrior to Banco De Mutuo Soccorsoro - Darwin* there's again a huge difference.  Banco seeks to express its self from central themes in which music paints the emotions...where as RTF simply builds an enchanting environment.  I think you'd be very hard pressed to find a well accepted Jazz-Fusion album which has a central theme which is reiterated throughout the albums.  I think you'd be equally hard pressed to find a prog album which paints an image of a scene without granting a position on it. This was well said, and I tend to agree with you on the musical/thematic differences between "prog" and "jazz-rock fusion."   I really just cannot reconcile the two art forms as being in the same space, except for generally developing in and around the same time period (60's-70's) and using common instruments.     Personally, I hate the term "prog" as it is applied very narrowly, to (primarily) European bands, primarily British.    The use of turntables in hip-hop was a very progressive move in musical development, but I doubt that I'll find much of that on this site!

the two are by far not as distinct as is being claimed. take for example a classic prog track like "Los Endos"; there are lots of jazz-rock elements in it. the same is true for "Sound Chaser" by Yes.  lots of Guru Guru or Kraan tracks have the same symbiosis. even some tracks by High Tide. and that's just a few examples