Spiritual but not religious?

Mr ProgFreak wrote: Epignosis wrote: All men are mortal. I can go through life without a problem without knowing the answer to that ("Are there immortal men?"). Taking for granted that all men are mortal is not a requirement for Atheism. Epignosis wrote: Murder is evil. Humans have a collaboratively (and instinctively) developed system of moral values. The Bible is a direct result (at least some parts that aren't too tainted by ulterior motives). The question "what is evil" can not be answered by science like the question "does gravity exist". But somehow I find my explanation of how we arrive at an answer more plausible than the idea that a extra-dimensional being created our moral values.

Not surprisingly, you evade the bigger picture.  I don't care that something is a "requirement for atheism" or not.  You called my belief unfalsifiable and therefore unprovable.  I countered by saying that there are many things that are unfalsifiable that we take for granted everyday.

You find something more plausible, and I find something else more plausible.

Mr ProgFreak wrote: ^^^ I could also live my life perfectly fine, knowing that the society I live in has this moral value. I don't have to take it for granted, if you don't want to. Toddlers intuitively help others, the desire to be good is innate in every one of us except those that are indoctrinated to think otherwise, or have pathological defects (e.g. sociopathy). We're simply hard wired in many aspects.

Do you know any toddlers Mike?    I'm around them all day long (not just my own).  They are selfish and rude. 

The desire to be good is innate?  I think you'd have a tough time demonstrating that.  Every statistic I've ever seen would lead one to believe otherwise.

Thanks for ignoring my posts mike...!!! I thought we were discussing...

I have to agree with Rob on this actually.

Raptor Jesus. The only Deity that makes sense to me!

And goodness being innate?

Some people sure, I've seen it.
But ALL people? Goodness just being an innate quality of human beings? No.
Seen it in some kids when I worked at a YMCA daycare center, but not just kids. How many adults don't act in a "good" way. Hell my room mate was extremely selfish, never did anything for ANYONE unless it helped him or interested him, stabbed a few people in the back, is homophobic and racist, (and makes the former pretty blatant). And that's one example. I dont think goodness is an innate quality of ALL people.

jampa17 wrote: Mr ProgFreak wrote: jampa17 wrote: You can't describe love, and you can't give an accurate description of it, I'm not saying that christianity is a "fact"... I'm saying that you believe in something that you can't describe or prove, like love, so, it's the same for me, I can't describe or prove God, that doesn't mean he/she/it doesn't exists... when mankind understands that there's somethings beyond us, you get it... you are too confident about science and tell me, what is different in mankind...? we are still haunting, killing, and destroying the world, do you think science has taken us to another level of life...? But you do much more than simply believe in God. If I remember correctly, you're a Catholic. It doesn't matter which denomination it is, my point is that you also believe in an elaborate, man-made set of rules for daily life. You have faith in that this is the path to salvation and all others aren't. You are willing to make certain sacrifices in your life or at least in some ways have these rules influence decisions you make. You believe in an afterlife and expect to transcend death. Even if I thought that there were "some things beyond us" (which I actually don't rule out as a possibility), your religious way of life goes far beyond that. And if you really think that science hasn't done a lot to improve your life ... take away doctors, medicine, electricity, refrigerators, motors etc.. Science *and* humanism has taken us to another level of life *despite of* religion. If you think that in my opinion science is all that matters, you are mistaken. But science is the only way to understand how the world works. Religious ideas have proven time and time again to be grossly out of sync with the real world. It's the 21st century, and there are still millions of people who think that the earth is flat (It's written in the Ko'ran, and every word of it is true).     Yes, I'm a catholic and no, I didn't take all that "man-made set of rules" blindly. I wonder what is wrong to love your neighboor? or to don't say lies? or to not steal things? or to respect your parents? you see, those are common rules to every human and that's how we could have a better life, not with "science"... I'm not saying it doesn't worth, I'm just saying that science alone is not enough... at the end we are humans and there's a lot that science can't explain -yet- about our own selves, imagine with the outer things or beings, like, God...

Those are all very basic things that humans developed (evolved) an innate understanding for. Most of them are simply detrimental to society (EDIT: of course I mean violating these rules is detrimental) - humans have better chances for survival when they cooperate.

But as a Catholic you're also required to believe in baptism, transubstantiation, the holy trinity, the virgin mary, the various saints, the pope, the rejection of contraception, abortion and stem cell research etc. etc.. There are no good reasons for believing in any of those, and many of them are in conflict with other religions that also have many followers who are very enthusiastic about their rules and firmly believe that you go to hell for not following them.

I said myself that science can't yet explain everything ... in fact it may very well never be able to explain everything. That's still no need to favor a supernatural explanation for everything we can't currently explain otherwise.

jampa17 wrote: But back to my point, what is wrong to follow some rules...? is that bad...? I mean, you have show us many times that you mistake a lot of the positions in the scriptures and you point at us, when in fact, I do understand some things from the inside and I don't find hard or bad to believe Jesus is with us, that he resurrected and that the World was made for him... what is wrong about it?

What's wrong with it is that you can't give me good reason to believe that all this is true, but all other religions are false. If you're one of the moderate people who believe that anyone is saved who believes in some form of God, then you're not a Catholic anymore ... sure, sometimes churches emanate strange ecumenical messages, but at the end of the day they will try to reason why their particular flavor of Christianity is so much better than another.

jampa17 wrote: you don't see me or my community to say "It's God's will" we say "what can we do to make things better in the eyes of God?" and the answer is always love man... because this world is a better place with love... sorry if it's cheesy, but is true, and I don't think anyone can denied that love is better than polution, politics, war and violence, which are the common reality of our World... isn't...?

If love is everything for you, why not become a Jain? And I'm also a big fan of love, just spare me the child abuse. Ok, that was a low blow, but especially the Catholic church is (in)famous for its dysfunctional approach to sexuality.



Edited by Mr ProgFreak - June 10 2010 at 14:14

JJLehto wrote: And goodness being innate? Some people sure, I've seen it. But ALL people? Goodness just being an innate quality of human beings? No. Seen it in some kids when I worked at a YMCA daycare center, but not just kids. How many adults don't act in a "good" way. Hell my room mate was extremely selfish, never did anything for ANYONE unless it helped him or interested him, stabbed a few people in the back, is homophobic and racist, (and makes the former pretty blatant). And that's one example. I dont think goodness is an innate quality of ALL people.

By the time you meet kids at a YMCA daycare center, they're already heavily influenced by their parents. I know a two year old girl who is already hitting people if she doesn't like something, and I know that her father and her mother beat her occasionally. She's my quasi-niece (the daughter of my step-father's daughter), and our whole family is very concerned about her and her older sister - but what can you do? Their father is a muslim from Tunisia. Drinks beer and wine, but hates pork with a passion. Pick any color you like!

JJLehto wrote: Raptor Jesus. The only Deity that makes sense to me!

I knew it - Christianity is all a big conspiracy by the lizard people!


All kidding aside: Who was this "Jesus" anyway, and what did he say? Nobody really knows.

JJLehto wrote: Well, my own personal belief and I suppose this is "faith" because I can't PROVE this in any way.... But: Jesus was just a man. That doesn't take away from what he said or did. He probably was just preaching about peace, love, be good to your fellow man. The basics of all religions (you know before extremists and idiots derail it). I certainly don't use the Bible as a source for his life because, well Rob correct me if  I'm wrong. But I thought there was a gap from when Jesus was 9 (I think) to 33. What happened in between? And wasn't there that council where there was a vote about whether Jesus was human or divine?

12 to 33 (or so), but yeah.

As for councils...don't get me started.    Like I said, I'm not a Trinitarian...