Rock & Roll is to Jazz as Punk is to Prog...

 ^ nice story, though I'd say that's more a triumph for the power of music and of Jazz artists than an indication "todays ProgRockers have more in common with Jazz music fans than early R'nR pioneers".  Most real Jazz listeners I know don't care for or really know about 'Prog rock'--  if I mention Pink Floyd or Jethro Tull they'll know the name or a few familiar cuts.   But I would tend to agree with much of what you assert, and find as much of a 'jazz-like' approach in Prog, a progressive mindset with the room to improvise both toward finished composition as well as spontaneously, as a love of the rock sound.   I would also agree that Prog as a music has more in common with Jazz and it's history than with classical, from which it tends to merely borrow ideas or formats.

Wow great logical post! really got me thinking

Most jazz fans (under the age of say 70 years old) arrived to jazz via "normal" mainstream styles of popular music as well.  Pop, pop-rock, pop, soul, R&B and many other styles.  Indeed jazz has sub-genres that are "melting pots" of various crossovers from popular music.  (Admittedly some jazz fans move from pure devotion to classical music over to jazz for the freedom, but most classical fans also enjoy "normal" mainstream styles of popular music at the same time that they enjoy classical so they metaphorically are standing in two places at the same time so to speak.  Often even they arrive to jazz via "normal" mainstream popular styles as well.)

 

The bigger picture of what I’m trying to say, however, is that both forms absorb other influences and tend to celebrate complexity and virtuosity (while not requiring either).  Punk and ‘Rock and Roll’ were both minimalist movements that “dumbed down” the prevailing form of popular music.

 

Punk was supposed to kill Prog – and after a short stint of notoriety failed miserably.

Rock and Roll was supposed to kill Jazz – and despite a long run of popularity – failed to kill Jazz.

 

Jazz morphs and adapts to new influences.  So does Prog. 

 

I understand that 60’s and 70’s rock has a certain appeal to us Prog Fans.  It does to me too.  That is a musical similarity.  But it is only “skin deep”.

 

When it comes to Prog’s soul, its personality so to speak, it is more like Jazz than it is like Rock and Roll.

 

And Prog retains the expressive energy it got from rock music independent of whether mainstream rock music thrives with creative ambition in the 21st Century.

As such, I really think it is quite a waste of time and energy to wring our hands worrying about mainstream rock not living up to its creative potential.  It is almost absurd to treat *rock* as some sacred pinnacle of artistic merit from which we are inevitably declining into totally crappiness.  Music styles "tear down" and then 'build up" in slightly different directions only to "tear down" the status quo and rebuild again and again.

 

Edited by progpositivity - April 29 2010 at 14:03

progpositivity wrote:   Proletariat - How did you manage to say in just a few sentences what it took me paragraph upon paragraph to say"?

Longer sentances

All genres of music exist to present a form of music that another cannot. Classical progressed technologically for example. Beethoven had to have his metal pianos - the wooden ones couldn't take the pressure. What is classiucal now is the art form of popular songs from the Renaissance era to early 20th Century. It moved from vbeing religious and church oriented to the personal - Beethoven almost single handedly created the the basis from which all personal music would emerge. Okay, he was a miserable sod (great composer) who got too stuffy (humourless) about his own opera Fidelio. Thankfully he limited that to just one.

But rock and roll was a fusion of country and blues. It had to progress, live or die, it's your choice. We want to play a game... no, that's something else... So rock became more sophisticated. But it wasn't heartless, negative and hopelessly nihilistic as punk. It was about songs, youth and freedom. Punk was about no future. Great - what now?

But jazz was also born from the blues. Ragtime was an incredibly ambitious form of music. Scott Joplin was a very ambitious writer and it took a long time for the public to cotton on to his ideas. From there you get the Gershwins and Berlins and the jazz song - the Great American Songbook.

There was the great musicians - for some obscure rerason we seem to think the more developed a muso is the less he is in touch with "the kids" "the street." Et-tedium-cetera. Punk seemed to have this idea that kids couldn't dig the Floyd. This was when Floyd were going stratospheric - who was doing the listening then? Ask Rog - he was spitting on them. Oddly something he had in common with the punks.

But rock told Beethoven to roll over; a new music was in town. But if rock does not progress - move, it will die.

We should npot get confused between pop (a much older form) and rock. They have merged of course. In fact I'd say prog as we know it probably came from the more formal swing / pop (Tin Pan Alley) via the Beach Boys and Beatles than blues and hard rock. IMHO the first prog rock album was Days Of Future Passed. Not a whole lotta blues on that album Nor with KC, Yes, Genesis. Tull moved into a jazz rock folk melange - the blues was too limiting for Jethro and his merry men.

Anyway when it comes to elitism and snobbery there were few more obnoxious than Rotten and his punks. They actually had the gall to tell people not only what to listen to, but what NOT to listen to. These guys couldn't even play their own material, frankly I found punk embarrassing. Did Vicious and co seriously expect a PF fan to realise he was being taken for a ride and bliss out to Never Mind the Bollocks? (Not that he was on that album... and I have heard my fair share of punk. Indeed I even have a Magazine compilation and some new wave MP3s. Not too bad among 2500 plus albums / boots.

I do wonder what would have happened without punk. I do understand there must be friction between genres but with the intent to create. But prog rock probably would have developed it's off shoots more.

There. Just some comments in many paragraphs 'n' sentences. I do like prog rock and it shows when I start to type.

And hey... I love jazz. Charlie Parker did a version of Be Bop A Lula (not exactly recognisable.) But jazz was hardly ever about rebelling (beyond black Americans trying to establish a cultural identity in conservative white America.) It was about being not about bitching. There is far more to love in jazz (though I tend to go for Bop, Cool and Fusion (and standards if played by Joe Pass.)

All this typed to the sounds of Rush. We're only immortal for a limited time...

harmonium.ro wrote: I don't agree, most prog fans arrived to prog via normal rock, pop-rock and pop, and most of them still enjoy music from all these genres. Suffice to read the discussions on the forums to figure this out, especially in the General Music Discussions sub-forum. Also, though the jazz connection is acknowledged in the prog-world, there aren't that many progheads who listen to jazz on a regular basis, and even less who are jazz-heads at the same time... Those are really few.

It's a good analogy, and there's another dimension to it.

When I saw the title I...

uduwudu wrote: I do wonder what would have happened without punk. I do understand there must be friction between genres but with the intent to create. But prog rock probably would have developed it's off shoots more.

Yes,  I wonder too. It's not like I hate punk...actually as a metalhead I like a lot of the punk that crosses over a bit into metal. But I do feel it introduced needless segregation and division and may have been single handedly responsible for the multitude of redundant genres we have today.  Musicians should just be happy to play in their own style and approach, what is the need for crucification?

Nah, as a Prog fan i must say that i couldn't live without rock!
I don't care about how highly jazz fans usually think they stand, i do have some friends who only listen to jazz and think that's the only good thing in the world, the rest being all crap, nah, 'you'r of idiots' that's what i say to them.

I like to believe that prog fans are more open minded into accepting what's good in other genres, not really worrying about how hard or simple or short or long are the pieces of music. ( seeing the first post i'm probably wrong, but still...)

i like prog, rock, punk and jazz. though i listen more to the first 2, i don't desdain the following.