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Joined: May 06 2007
Location: New york
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Points: 162
Posted: April 26 2010 at 16:28
Nothing that came after Procols Shine on Brightly can be considered the first prog album. Absolutely absurd notion, not to be taken seriously. SOB came a year before ITCOTCK.
If you want to hallucinate something that came before might have been #1, I will allow you that indulgence.
Joined: April 21 2010
Location: PDX, OR
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Points: 74
Posted: April 26 2010 at 15:00
Floydman wrote:
[
It really doesn't matter if you think the Beatles were progressive rock or not they had a huge impact on these guys.
Thanks Floydman. Inspiration has always fascinated me.
The fun thing (or difficult depending on your point of view) about this thread is exploring what could be described as a nebulous beginning and defining when that existence started. From this discussion, I've narrowed that beginning down to somewhere between the Big Bang (or Creation) and ITCOTCK.
One of the difficulties has been in what the definitions are that we are trying to find the beginning of. Definitions have ranged from progressing music to Progressive Rock. Then what constitutes a prog song let alone an album? Of all the myriad components of prog, how many of them does an album have to have? Are any of the components mandatory? The problem from this is that definition while explanatory, can also be limiting. We may be able to define the classic definition by saying it has to have a different time signature or no chorus or many other identifying ticks of prog. But, by definition, prog is having the freedom to leave a previous definition and explore something never done before. By defining prog, we will be readying the stage for the new prog to be something the old prog isn't.
It all boils down to the definition. One definition could be an academic one. Band A was the first to do an album containing components X, Y and Z therefore it is the first prog. But, what if only three people listened to the album and none of them created an album to further the movement? The first prog album would only be recognized by looking back in an archeological sense.
It could also be defined scientifically. For the fun of it, using quantum physics, prog didn't exist until someone was in the forest listening to it. Which may have some truth to it.
It could also be a populist definition. What do most of the people say? The big problem with this is prog has never been a populist movement. Kasey Kasem never did a top 40 for us. The Grammies don't have a category for us.
Prog's definition may be, if I can paraphrase the one from porn, we will know it when we hear it. Personally, I would rather have the definition come from the prog community rather than a quantum archeologist on am radio.
For whatever reason, the prog community, for the most part, has recognized ITCOTCK as the first prog album. Though there have been a few disagreements, none have been able to disprove it to the community. What came before it has been influential and what came after has been derivitive. King Crimson may not get support for being the originators of the components but they are getting credit for what they did with those components. Therefore it has all the definitions: one of the first to use all of the components; many people were listening to them when it came out; and the popular consensus of the prog community. Until someone can show another band answering these definitions prior to KC, KC will wear the crown.
Keep in mind one thing. All of us can point to our own origins to prog. Many of us listened to the classic prog from our dad's albums and discovered it in a retro fashion. Some of us bought the ITCOTCK when it first came out. And a few of us listened to Sgt. Pepper, The Nice, Moody Blues, Frank Zappa, etc and started to get it before it was even there. The true beginning will not be when it happened for us but when it happened for the community. Everything else is either inspirational or derivitive.
As with all things, there is no one explanation for anything. Especially when we consider prog which is all about freedom to make our own definitions. There are exceptions to this out there and that will only make the discussion more interesting.
Even a man who stumbles around in the dark will influence those he does not see.
Joined: November 24 2009
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Points: 67
Posted: April 26 2010 at 09:15
Devonsidhe wrote:
Since King Crimson is being credited with being the first prog album by influencing future bands of the same style, it would be interesting to hear what Fripp says influenced him in making ITCOTCK. Did he hear something similar and used it in his own vein or did he bring it from two or more sources to create a synthesis of his own? If he was influenced by something that could be considered prog, it would support the argument he wasn't the first. If he was influenced by something not considered prog, it would support the claim of ITCOTCK being the first or at least one of the first. Does anybody know what Fripp has said?
I don't think anything really sounds like King Crimson first album but if want to know who jump started what Robert Fripp wanted to do is the Beatles. It sort of the same effect the Beatles had on the Byrds going electric and jump starting folk rock
Listen to "Strawberry Fields Forever" it has signature progressive rock elements mellotron, mixed time signatures, definite use of studio as an instrument, and unusaul song structure. Now everything on Pepper is not proto-progressive or progressive rock but one of the early songs that King Crimson did cover was "Lucy In the Sky With Diamonds". It really doesn't matter if you think the Beatles were progressive rock or not they had a huge impact on these guys.
Robert Fripp on hearing the Beatles Sgt Pepper
Robert Fripp- "When I was 20, I worked at a hotel in a dance orchestra, playing weddings, bar-mitzvahs, dancing, cabaret. I drove home and I was also at college at the time. Then I put on the radio (Radio Luxemburg) and I heard this music. It was terrifying. I had no idea what it was. Then it kept going. Then there was this enormous whine note of strings. Then there was this colossal piano chord. I discovered later that I'd come in half-way through Sgt. Pepper, played continuously. My life was never the same again"
Bill Buford:
The Beatles. They broke down every barrier that ever existed. Suddenly you could do anything after The Beatles. You could write your own music, make it ninety yards long, put it in 7/4, whatever you wanted.
Joined: March 12 2008
Location: Madrid (spain)
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Points: 169
Posted: April 26 2010 at 08:20
I consider that Moody Blues are not the first prog band...but i think what is interesting is realizing that prog is a crossroad in the middle of many things happenining at that time ( and none of this things separatedly):
We have psychedlia for one side, Jazz of course, and also what we may call just symphonic rock wich first group i consider to be Procol Harum ( and in this category will lie the Moodys).
Pink Floyd first is sonic experimentation of the first degree but its psychedelia after all.
ITCOCTCK is prog......no one that have heard "21 century..." could say that its not prog, all the ingredients are there musicianship, technical virtuosity, compositional care, rythim changes...and its rock!!!
Joined: April 21 2010
Location: PDX, OR
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Posted: April 26 2010 at 08:15
Since King Crimson is being credited with being the first prog album by influencing future bands of the same style, it would be interesting to hear what Fripp says influenced him in making ITCOTCK. Did he hear something similar and used it in his own vein or did he bring it from two or more sources to create a synthesis of his own? If he was influenced by something that could be considered prog, it would support the argument he wasn't the first. If he was influenced by something not considered prog, it would support the claim of ITCOTCK being the first or at least one of the first. Does anybody know what Fripp has said?
Even a man who stumbles around in the dark will influence those he does not see.
Joined: October 05 2009
Location: Sweden
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Points: 167
Posted: April 26 2010 at 04:37
Well, sure. King Crimson is an eclectic prog band, so obviously ITCOTCK has to be eclectic too. But it's not quite as varied and undefinable as, let's say Lark's Tongues in Aspic. More than half of the album can be called symphonic prog, so that is what I am going to call it. I also call Pink Floyd's Meddle space prog even though there are blues, jazz and folk in it.
Edit: Also, ITCOTCK helped influence symphonic prog more than any other prog genre.
Edited by Silverbeard McStarr - April 26 2010 at 04:38
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
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Posted: April 26 2010 at 04:09
I don't think one can call "In the Court of the Crimson King" "symphonic prog". maybe half of the album ("I Talk To the Wind", "Epitaph" and the title track may be called so, but "21st Century Schizoid Man" and "Moonchild" are definitely not symphonic prog, and they make up half of the album.
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
Joined: October 05 2009
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Posted: April 26 2010 at 03:54
In the Court of the Crimson King isn't the first prog album - it's the first symphonic prog album (assuming that Days of Future Passed is symphonic rock rather than prog). And, while King Crimson mattered immensely to the development of prog, they never really managed to be first with anything specific, perhaps other than being King Crimson.
Is there a first prog album? I doubt so. Prog rock is by many means a movement rather than a genre, and it is hard to find whatever cataclysm that caused it. The way I see it, it's neither King Crimson or The Moody Blues. Nor is it Procol Harum. It's not any Canterbury Scene bands and it's frankly not Franky Zappa.
I dare say, it's Pink Floyd. Saucerful of Secrets is a four-part epic that led into the proggy madness of Ummagumma. First of all, the whole album is experimental. While King Crimson had long songs, they didn't really experiment with the album format other than, well, using long songs. Ummagumma, on the other hand had three multi-parted "suites", together with a longer prog folk song and a shorter avant-prog thing. Ummagumma led to what we nowadays consider space prog and helped invent avant-prog. And I do believe Pink Floyd did help inspire the future direction for the Canterbury Scene as well.
Judging by the impact, Ummagumma is way more of an cataclysm than In the Court. In the Court is just way more critically acclaimed and helped influence of critically acclaimed genres.
Joined: May 28 2005
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Posted: April 25 2010 at 20:09
I don't know which month ITCOTCK came out, but there were certainly a lot of prog albums which came out in 1969, so it must have been something which was in the air. and the German scene had existed since 1967, only no-one ever dared to record an album before Amon Düül's horribly bad "Psychedelic Underground" came out which took away all the inferiority complexes German bands had; they certainly could not be worse than that. and suddenly there was a torrent of albums which came out in 1969 and 1970. so it was a close call all around; prog is by no means a British invention alone. I am pretty sure the French and Italian scenes were full of bands too at that time, but I am not that familiar with their origins as I am with the German scene (due to having read the excellent biography of Amon Düül by Ingeborg Schober). it was simply something which was in the air, and whoever published the first album can definitely not claim the whole thing got started by it. ITCOTCK was an important album, but not as important as it is often being said; prog would have started without it
Edited by BaldJean - April 26 2010 at 04:00
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: Bucks county PA
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Points: 1474
Posted: April 25 2010 at 18:48
Although "court" was not imo the very first prog album or progressive rock album I guess it's fair to say that it was very important nonetheless and could be considered the starting point for the classic prog rock sound that followed as it does seem to play an important role in the impetus for the prog of the seventies. There were definitely bands that had prog songs before them though if not whole prog albums. Some folks refer to them as the proto prog bands which often includes the Beatles among others. I'm not so sure I like the term proto prog but there it is. King Crimson's first I think may have been the first to make people sit up and say something like "wow, what is this. this is really different" where as the stuff before it just made people think they were hearing just other psychedelic stuff or something. Also the first KC was pretty popular at the time so I think that played a role in a lot people hearing it and thus being influenced by it even though other bands before them certainly hinted at prog even if they didn't start it.
Joined: May 12 2009
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Posted: April 25 2010 at 18:19
Devonsidhe wrote:
The inspiration for prog music may go backwards ad infinitum with no real beginning.
Indeed. Where there are minds that wish to explore and expand, there will always be some kind of progression.
The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
I think In the Court of the Crimson King might have been the first really popular prog album but there may have been earlier ones (I don't own any but I trust that some of the comments others have made have some validity.
But having a definition helps...except that the definition itself if controversial. Probably the definition posted on this site is best because it represents a broad consensus. My own inclination is to propose something more restrictive, a definition that gets at why the greatest prog bands tend to have created those epic songs that many of us who love prog find are prog's greatest works.
...although I am not familiar with some of the songs, many of them are album side-long epics. I'm not saying that epics make a prog rock band but they are the natural result of a serious progressive rock band.
When I listen to Beatles songs many of them are excellent but they are too short, they lack prolonged instrumental sections and never left the basic chorus structure of most pop-rock songs. But "A Day in the Life" took a strong step in the above direction. The Abbey Road medley was close to the form that would define (for me) a progressive rock song but it was really just a collection of song ideas moreso than a composed work.
I don't see The Moody Blues as a progressive rock band because they don't really pursue extensive instrumental passages in their songs. They do have great concept albums but I don't count a concept album as a sufficient quality of an album to say that its songs are progressive rock.
I also don't buy into thinking of progressive rock as meaning music that is progressive. To me that is not a genre but rather a term that helps to identify the historical significance of a song or album. From that angle progressive rock isn't a genre it is just a collection of innovative music from various genres.
Joined: July 02 2008
Location: Australia
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Posted: April 23 2010 at 21:45
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
December 17th, 1968:
It was another dreary morning in Old Blighty. Bobby "Chuckles" Fripp awoke from another insatiable all-night bender with his mates at the Cornish Gypsy pub right around the corner. Bedraggled and slightly scraggly, Bobby clambered out of bed in search for a drink of water. As he lugged his frame forward, visions of a hookah-laced dream crept up from the deep recesses of the mind. The soundtrack involved mellotrons, guitar notes, odd time signatures and that nice paperboy Greg. He was on the cusp of a revelation. Stumbling into the living room, he gleefully clasped Giles and McDonald on their respective shoulders.
"Boys," muttered Fripp, "I've got an idea."
Yeah, that there's the birth of prog, alright. And then Giles walked into the studio and started fiddling with glockenspiels and sticks while Lake worked out how to use a voice phaser. Fripp said, "I want to play a different tune to everyone else during the instrumental", but McDonald wanted to play his sax at the same time anyway. They all walked into the studio, after an hour of kanoodling, and Sinfield walked up to Lake, "Here's the lyrics, fellers". Lake read it, "cats foot, iron claw? What the heck?" Sinfield shrugged and said, "it's called art." McDonald was jazzing it up and someone pressed record.
The band began to play and music history was indelibly changed. The Prog egg was cracked open and out hatched a hungry little genre.
Joined: November 05 2009
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Posted: April 23 2010 at 15:08
I know this sounds stupid, but when I was young, the Disreali Gears album cover turned my head. My eyes had to have another look, but what turned my ear was Herb Albert and The Tijuana Brass. Not prog, of course, but the tight Horns was new and exciting. Don't laugh
Joined: April 21 2010
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Posted: April 23 2010 at 14:53
The inspiration for prog music may go backwards ad infinitum with no real beginning. I agree with an earlier post that this could be argued back to the creation or big bang. But, we are looking for the origins of what is represented by the phrase "progessive rock" While we could argue the evolution of humanity to before the dinosaurs, humanity has a somewhat clearer (though still fuzzy) beginning to way after the end of the dinosaurs.
Like I said earlier, I can't remember when I first heard the term progessive rock but I do remember the term art rock beng used quite early. I heard a radio program about forty years ago that celebrated the top five bands of art rock: Moody Blues; ELP; Genesis; Yes; and Pink Floyd. Looking back, the same bands described as art rock are now known as prog so maybe one term replaced the other. This was about the time of the peak of the golden age of prog since Dark Side of the Moon had been out less than a year. For me, the classic definition of classic prog is represented by the music of this time. In order to discover the origins, I have been wondering more specifically, where did these bands originate and out of what?
I can probably speak best of the Moody Blues. In 1966, Hayward and Lodge replaced Lane and Warwick and became the line up known for its Days of Future Passed and everything they did afterwards. The first influence was more a folk type of pop like "Fly Me High", :Cities" and a few others. Then when they went into the studio for their first album together, Decca was wanting them to record something based on the symphonies of Dvorak for their new stereo label: Deram. Of course, what the Moodies did was not what they were expecting. What they brought back was Days of Future Passed (Dec. 1967). Since the orchestration was not something they had been doing earlier, I've often wondered what influence Decca's traditionalism had on the coming prog movement?
I have seen a few opinions that the Moodies are not prog or at best proto-prog as a band who simply writes pop songs in a common theme. I disagree. They combined symphony and rock. Blended tracks so that one could almost meld into the next. Plus, their common theme to each album made it a story that progressed from one song to the next. While I don't think we will find one point in time or place that we can point to as the origins of prog, I do feel that the Moodies played their part.
I do know some about the other bands I mentioned above, but I would rather hear from someone else who knows the bands better. Would someone mind posting what they know about any of the other four bands or another band from that era?
Joined: November 24 2009
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Posted: April 23 2010 at 09:41
javier0889 wrote:
We could say that The Beatles went "prog" because of Bob Dylan!
Dylan gave them the inspiration (and the drugs, of course xD) to start playing more complex music, and not just those cheap love songs of the Beatlemania days.
Also I'd like to mention The 13th Floor Elevators. Their first record, "Psychedelic Sounds Of..." was released with a certain tracklist, but the "real order" was different. With the "official" order, you just hear a bunch of psychedelic rock songs. But in the "alternative" order, you are supposed to experience a journey through the human spirit (or something like that xD). Then you had a big eye on the album cover, and a lot of hidden meanings around the idea of that eye, you know, because of the Illuminati.
Does it sound familiar? ;)
You have to remember it was Dylan who said the Beatles were heading the direction of popular music and the Byrds have gone on record many times that the Beatles were their main inspiration for going electric and forming a rock band. The Beatles were very important to folk rock, and as David Crosby once said, they were doing folk-influenced chords and harmonies from the start. Even the Beatlemania stuff is very folky in its chord structure and vocal arrangements. You can hear it very clearly as early as "Love Me Do", which is musically folky, and in the mellow bridge section of "I Want To Hold Your Hand", and most definitely in the jangly guitars of "A Hard Day's Night".
Yes Dylan influenced the Beatles lyricially but musically the Beatles were already expanding the parameters of WHAT COULD BE ROCK MUSIC. They incorporated classic and world music elements to their songs (which helped the development of prog-rock and baroque pop and art rock. They experimented in the use of rare metric patterns and song structures (which helped the development of prog-rock. Songs like "Norwegian Wood" would include modes like Mixolydiaon and Dorian Modes in one song. "Love You To" clearly has full-blown raga sounds on a rock album.
Joined: March 12 2008
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Points: 169
Posted: April 23 2010 at 08:29
The whole album is like a giant song!!! And you have "a day in a life" wich a lot of people dismiss due to its fame, but i find that these one and "Being for the benefit of mister keith" (dont now if im spelling it good, anyway..) to be the very start of prog. Abbey road is cool but i cant see it as a real concept album while Sargent was.
Anyway, i agree to choose one level of discusion.
If we are talking about elongated songs i think psychedelic bands were the first to do something like it,
for example Quicksilver Messengers Service, s "The foo" ( wich i absolutely adore).
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Joined: October 31 2006
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Posted: April 22 2010 at 08:47
@shockedjazz: I never mentioned Sgt Pepper. It's not repetitive, it has contaminations but it's not 15 minutes or more in length . The most prog work of Beatles IMO is Abbey Road. It's the only Beatles' album that I would rate 5 stars on PA and the live cover played by Transatlantic is one of the best things that I've listened to in the recent years, mainly because is very close to the original.
Sealchan is right about the many levels that this discussion can have: let's try to choose just one.
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Genesis of Classic Prog : When did it all begin ?
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Floydman wrote:
. The most prog work of Beatles IMO is Abbey Road. It's the only Beatles' album that I would rate 5 stars on PA and the live cover played by Transatlantic is one of the best things that I've listened to in the recent years, mainly because is very close to the original.