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theBox 
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 Posted: April 14 2010 at 01:46 |
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Actually the matter is quite simple for me. Genesis were MASTERS of HARMONIC LANGUAGE. Their Chord progressions and the way they arranged them was far and beyond anything done by the bands of the day. The newer copycats just focus on the sound or the vocals but FAIL to take into account the HARMONIC MANNERISMS of genesis themselves, and that's why they will always fail.
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Lorien Dude
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Posted: April 14 2010 at 11:22 |
"Very interesting points Ivan. At first listen, Genesis *sounds* easier to imitate because there are not as many singularly dominant performances, thus more neo-proggers were emboldened to "give it a go". But successfully "pulling it off" is deceptively difficult due to the subtlety of the interplay among the varous components of classic era Genesis music."
I can agree with this. My covers band did Watcher Of The Skies. During any rehearsal or gig, one was just waiting for the train wreck to happen, The most difficult song I've ever had the displeasure of murdering :O)
Enjoyed reading this thread, chaps, don't often get on here but will be doing so more often.
Cheers
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American Khatru
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Posted: April 14 2010 at 13:40 |
 theBox wrote:
Actually the matter is quite simple for me. Genesis were MASTERS of HARMONIC LANGUAGE. Their Chord progressions and the way they arranged them was far and beyond anything done by the bands of the day. The newer copycats just focus on the sound or the vocals but FAIL to take into account the HARMONIC MANNERISMS of genesis themselves, and that's why they will always fail. |
Perfectly true, and the basis of the observation I made earlier (even if it came off mean, for which I would apologize). Add to this: the imitators also seem not nearly so LITERATE as the Genesis members -- at least not so much as the Genesis members with "pen in hand", writing the tunes, most of all PG and SH. To go with such a, well, Victorian sound, one would really do well to sing about mythology, the classics, allegories, things of that nature or things connected to it. Most inspired/imitators don't have that rich lyrical basis, and whatever exceptions there are to this still fall well short. (A part of this is just due to the ever decaying education in these rich old subjects.)
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 Why must my spell-checker continually underline the word "prog"?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: April 14 2010 at 14:21 |
American Khatru wrote:
theBox wrote:
Actually the matter is quite simple for me. Genesis were MASTERS of HARMONIC LANGUAGE. Their Chord progressions and the way they arranged them was far and beyond anything done by the bands of the day. The newer copycats just focus on the sound or the vocals but FAIL to take into account the HARMONIC MANNERISMS of genesis themselves, and that's why they will always fail. |
Perfectly true, and the basis of the observation I made earlier (even if it came off mean, for which I would apologize). Add to this: the imitators also seem not nearly so LITERATE as the Genesis members -- at least not so much as the Genesis members with "pen in hand", writing the tunes, most of all PG and SH. To go with such a, well, Victorian sound, one would really do well to sing about mythology, the classics, allegories, things of that nature or things connected to it. Most inspired/imitators don't have that rich lyrical basis, and whatever exceptions there are to this still fall well short. (A part of this is just due to the ever decaying education in these rich old subjects.) |
Good points, early Genesis sung to everything with a full knowledge of the issue, they sung to a giant plant that sounded like Mythology but was real, sung to kings as Knute that are not known by a good part of the Britishs, dealed with terrible topics as violence mixes with sexual desires between a Child turned in adult and a girl (Musical Box) with enough class to make it sound mysterious before repulsive, imitators just look for a similar vocal range, but forget the central issue...The ideas and imagination, Genesis made The Musical Box sound terrifying and mysterious, imitators would make it sound as paedophilia.
Some bands believe that having a vocalist that has a similar range to Gabriel and a keyboardiist who follows Tony Banks is enough, but there's much more in Genesis, the richness pof the band sound and the thick atmosphere before unnecessary solos, is something only Genesis was able to create.
I'm sure that Chris Squire is more recognized than Mike Rutherford, but only Rutherford was able to be an integral part of Genesis, I heard Tony Levin and Jeff Berlin making Squire parts, but hardly heard any bassist capable to replace Rutherford in Genesis.
Of course they had luck, the loss of Anbthony Phillips could had been tragic, but found Hackett who had a relatively similar style, with aggressive atmospheres instead of wanting to shred and be the next Hendrix.
Genesis could only had that success with Gabriel, Hackett (or Phillips), Collins, Rutherford and Banks, whatever other formation, would had not worked equally, the prove is in the fact that except the first drummers and Phillips, they never replaced a member (except when Collins didn't wanted to be back for CAS and had no alternative), but instead they hired session musicians and followed with three key members on studio, despite that Rutherford is not mainly a guitarist.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 14 2010 at 14:46
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American Khatru
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Posted: April 14 2010 at 14:33 |
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^ Sung of Tiresius for Pete's sake.
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Why must my spell-checker continually underline the word "prog"?
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American Khatru
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Posted: April 14 2010 at 14:36 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
American Khatru wrote:
theBox wrote:
Actually the matter is quite simple for me. Genesis were MASTERS of HARMONIC LANGUAGE. Their Chord progressions and the way they arranged them was far and beyond anything done by the bands of the day. The newer copycats just focus on the sound or the vocals but FAIL to take into account the HARMONIC MANNERISMS of genesis themselves, and that's why they will always fail. |
Perfectly true, and the basis of the observation I made earlier (even if it came off mean, for which I would apologize). Add to this: the imitators also seem not nearly so LITERATE as the Genesis members -- at least not so much as the Genesis members with "pen in hand", writing the tunes, most of all PG and SH. To go with such a, well, Victorian sound, one would really do well to sing about mythology, the classics, allegories, things of that nature or things connected to it. Most inspired/imitators don't have that rich lyrical basis, and whatever exceptions there are to this still fall well short. (A part of this is just due to the ever decaying education in these rich old subjects.) |
Good points, early Genesis sung to everything with a full knowledge of the issue, they sung to a giant plant that sounded like Mythology but was real, sung to kings as Knute that are not known by a good part of the Britishs, dealed with terrible topics as pedophilia and violence (Musical Box) with enough class to make it sound mysterious before repulsive, imitators just look for a similar vocal range, but forget the central issue...The ideas and imagination.
Some bands believe that having a vocalist that has a similar range to Gabriel and a keyboardiist who follows Tony Banks is enough, but there's much more in Genesis, the richness pof the band sound and the thick atmosphere before unnecessary solos, is something only Genesis was able to create.
I'm sure that Chris Squire is more recognized than Mike Rutherford, but only Rutherford was able to be an integral part of Genesis, I heard Tony Levin and Jeff Berlin making Squire parts, but hardly heard any bassist capable to replace Rutherford in Genesis.
Of course they had luck, the loss of Anbthony Phillips could had been tragic, but found Hackett who had a relatively similar style, with aggressive atmospheres instead of wanting to shred and be the next Hendrix.
Genesis could only had that success with Gabriel, Hackett (or Phillips), Collins, Rutherford and Banks, whatever other formation, would had not worked equally, the prove is in the fact that except the first drummers and Phillips, they never replaced a member (except when Collins didn't wanted to be back for CAS and had no alternative), but instead they hired session musicians and followed with three key members on studio, despite that Rutherford is not mainly a guitarist.
Iván |
Hey OP, blog answered. Next. 
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Why must my spell-checker continually underline the word "prog"?
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progpositivity
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Posted: April 14 2010 at 19:26 |
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That does it! Let's officially declare this question as "answered"...
And so it is time for this blog to - ahem - *progress*. 
At this blogs inception, I freely confessed that , although I like Genesis well enough I suppose, thus far I've really *connected* more with other Prog Giants like Yes and Gentle Giant. I even suggested that "perhaps I should revisit the Genesis (studio) albums from start to finish again, giving them a fair chance to elevate themselves to my personal Top Tier of Prog Greatness, a position they already hold with the vast majority of Prog Fans worldwide...
Well, now that I've heard observations on this blog from so many sincere and friendly Genesis aficiionados, how can I not take advantage of this opportunity to sequentially tour through the Genesis studio albums of the 1970's with them? (Special Note: If you suspect that when I said "1970's studio albums" I was simply employing a cheap and artificial device in order to avoid the debut album, then you have seen right through me. I am "guilty as charged'. I hope this does not offend you. Indeed, if "From Genesis to Revelation" inhabits an especially cherished place in your heart, please do feel free to post something about that album... I suppose I *could* even be shamed into including it in my mini-tour of Genesis studio albums... But I kind of doubt it.)
And so it is that I now embark upon my 2010 Genesis classic-era studio album mini-tour with the album TRESPASS. I pledge to you that I will give the entire TRESPASS album at least 3 *attentive* listens this week and will then post my thoughts here (whether they be good, bad or indifferent). Will anyone join me in such a mini-tour?
And even if you don't have time to go back and revisit/re-listen to TRESPASS this week, do you have any observations or suggestions for me as I do so?
For example:
* What should I be listening for on TRESPASS?
* Are there any subtle qualities I may miss if I don't listen closely for them?
* Are there any particular passages from one song or another that you wish to call to my attention?
* Of course, "The Knife" is a standout track. I don't think I'll need any help appreciating that one but feel free to extoll its virtues if you wish!
* Peter will play quite a bit of flute on this album, right?
* Ant's style will keep TRESPASS a bit more organic and pastoral than Hackett's approach on subsequent records, right?
I look forward to your feedback - especially whenever you feel I'm not giving credit where credit is due.
Let the listening begin!!
Mark Stephens
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: April 14 2010 at 21:32 |
^^^
Trespass, the album that started the legend, often underrated because Hackett and Collins were not there, but the giant leap that took a band in search for a hit single to a mature Progressive Rock band without steps.
It really took me several years to get used to Trespass, now I rate it only after Foxtrot and Nursery Cryme, incredibly ďs one of the Genesis albums that has that strong Hackett flavour even without Hackett, proving that only Steve could replace Ant.
My highlights are:
Looking for Someone: Around the third minute when the radical change happens, the incredible pass from piano to organ is simply delightful and the flute section is the cherry on the top.
White Mountain: IMO the first Genesis masterpiece, the keyboard intro is delightful, still gives me goose bumps, the voice of Peter sounds as clear as never after, again a radical change makes my day, just perfect, and Phillips adds the magic touch.
Visions of Angells: The instrumental break around the 2:30 minutes is the first trademark Genesis moment, the Mellotron and organ combination is out of his world..
Stagnation: The frenetic instrumental break around 2:47 is breathtaking and the vocal climax around 6:40 is perfect "I want a drink...I want a drink" , just precious and the following coda is just perfect
Dusk: Always impressed me that sort of Bossa Nova inspired musical break around the second minute.
The Knife: After White Mountain, the best song, not a weak moment, but the highlights in the violent lyrics, the revolutionary spirit taking with some sort of satire, I don't know what is more violent, if the music or the incendiary lyrics.
A great album.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 15 2010 at 09:56
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Finnforest
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Posted: April 14 2010 at 21:41 |
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I love Trespass too, possibly my favorite Genesis album. Tied with Selling England.
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Atavachron
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Posted: April 14 2010 at 22:02 |
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big Tres fan here too, in addition to the wonderful music and arrangements what impresses me is that in 1970 no one had done anything like it (though this may have been harder to see back then with all the incredible musical breakthroughs that were occurring)
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American Khatru
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Posted: April 15 2010 at 06:37 |
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I know Trespass well, but then again I listen to so much other prog from around the world that, come to think of it, I believe it has been a while since I've listened. And trust me I'd be happy to do so today.
I'll say one thing right off. There is a certain, I don't know, colour to the record. When you really know this for sure is when you come to observe that some residue of it remains in the next album, Nursery Cryme, and that the colour falls away after that (not to those future albums' detriment; they just mature yet again).
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: April 15 2010 at 09:49 |
American Khatru wrote:
I know Trespass well, but then again I listen to so much other prog from around the world that, come to think of it, I believe it has been a while since I've listened. And trust me I'd be happy to do so today.
I'll say one thing right off. There is a certain, I don't know, colour to the record. When you really know this for sure is when you come to observe that some residue of it remains in the next album, Nursery Cryme, and that the colour falls away after that (not to those future albums' detriment; they just mature yet again).
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IMHO Trespass is the first album from the first essential trilogy of Genesis.
The band started dark, obscure and mysterious, based in heavy atmospheres that covered the audience, being Trespass their darkest release, the sound was clearly based in the interplay between Phillips or Hackett and Banks, even when they changed two key members (The late but underrated John Mayhew and the colossal but extremely shy Anthony Phillips) Collins and Hackett didn't changed the style radically, it was the same band and the same mood.
As a fact the three albums show a shy formation, Hackett as Phillips, sitting and only caring for the guitar, Banks don't taking his eyes from the keys even to say hello to the audience and Rutherford hiding almost behind the right speakers (from the band's perspective), for God's sake, in the interviews only Gabriel and sometimes Collins spoke to the public and dared to joke between them on stage (The show of Peter only started during the Foxtrot tour, before they were a band with no act), while the others timidly laughed and said monosyllables. It was a band with virtuoso musicians but no stars except Peter.
It's only in SEbtP that the band mixed that initial approach and added a more friendly sound with some attempts of making themselves more popular as I Know what I Like and the sub-par More Fool Me.
Of course "The Lamb" was a "rara avis", an album that nobody (not even Gabriel I believe) expected, a much more complex and hard to understand album despite the preeminence of shorter tracks and some simpler songs like Carpet Crawlers or rocking tracks as the title song.
So for me, and even when the 5 Gabriel albums are perfect masterpieces, the first three Prog albums, define Gabriel Genesis as one of the most mysterious and magical band who privilege the team sound over the personal brilliance, and for that reason my favourites.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 15 2010 at 09:54
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American Khatru
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Posted: April 15 2010 at 10:43 |
^ Iván, I could cry,  honestly. Very sweet, they are my favorite too.
I take it you saw them back in the day? How many times, touring for what albums?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: April 15 2010 at 10:55 |
American Khatru wrote:
^ Iván, I could cry, honestly. Very sweet, they are my favorite too.
I take it you saw them back in the day? How many times, touring for what albums? |
I had a couple of problems with the Genesis tours:
- Not old enough, I was was about 10 when Gabriel left Genesis.
- I am Peruvian, and we are not the center of musical universe exactly
- My first and only (until today) Genesis concert was during the Invisible Touch Tour and left after the medley.
- I became a Genesis fan after watching the Peruvian band Frágil playing Watcher,I Know what I like, The Knife and Can Utility & the Coastliners as openers of a Pop band back in 1976 when my musical life changed...We went to see the Pop band "You" and nearly 70% of the audience left fter Frágil ended their show, making a scandal and asking for more Prog.
Only seen Gabriel Genesis on videos. 
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 15 2010 at 11:20
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American Khatru
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Posted: April 15 2010 at 11:14 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
American Khatru wrote:
^ Iván, I could cry, honestly. Very sweet, they are my favorite too.
I take it you saw them back in the day? How many times, touring for what albums? |
I had a couple of problems with the Genesis tours:
- Not old enough, I was was about 10 when Gabrikl left Genesis.
- I am Peruvian, and we are not the center of musical universe exactly
- My first and only (until today) Genesis concert was during the Invisible Touch Tour and left after the medley.
- I became a Genesis fan after watching the Peruvian band Frágil playing Watcher,I Know what I like, The Knife and Can Utility & the Coastliners as openers of a Pop band back in 1976 when my musical life changed...We went to see the Pop band "You" and nearly 70% of the audience left fter Frágil ended their show, making a scandal and asking for more Prog.
Only seen Gabriel Genesis on videos.
Iván |
Oh I see. We're about the same age then. And I regret I wasn't old enough to see them too. But, of course, nothing we could do about that.
Well, apologies to everyone else, back to the business of the thread...
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progpositivity
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Posted: April 15 2010 at 19:56 |
I'm still listening and absorbing...
Day One was devoted a full spin of Side One - and then to repeated "listenings" of Track One "Looking for Someone". I now feel ready to make some observations on the first song of the album. But first...
So many bands start off their albums with long, droning or ambient audio sequences. Why do they do this? To build anticipation and tension I suppose.
Oddly enough, I'll admit that I don't really mind this approach at at a concert hall before a band takes the stage... On the contrary, I consider it quite effective... We are all packed into this arena, waiting together as a 'tension building' tone imperceptably "sneaks" into our collective consciousness. Suddenly we begin to "take notice" as the lights begin to dim... and some guy starts screaming... "TOWN... Let me introduce... GENESIS!!!!!!!!!!" and we all go wild... I truly "get" that.
But on disc, hearing this monotonous 18 second "build up" of a swelling keyboard patch (or whatever it happens to be) just drives me bonkers. It makes me want to stand up and scream - "DO SOMETHING MUSICAL ALREADY, ANYTHING - PLEASE!!" But that's my problem I know. (And you guessed it. I'm not a huge fan of 'ambient' music... But at least people like Eno put a lot of thought into the colors of their ambient music. I can actually dig that. But these bands don't usually put that much blood, sweat and tears into the introductory murmur IMO. I envision someone finding the nearest droning low orchestral tone they can find and say "yeah - we'll fade that in..." It DRIVES ME CRAZY!
Ah, well, there must be something valid to that approach... So many bands do it. It simply must be aesthetically pleasing to a lot of people, no?
My apologies for that mini-rant... Just consider it my own little 'ambient' "build up/intro" to the beginning of the actual 'content' of this post! 
OK - that said, starting off this album with just Gabriel's unique voice. What an inspired move! They really knew they had something special with Gabriel's vocals, didn't they? And the song goes right into motion (which as you know by now that I truly appreciate)...
Single word thoughts that strike me upon listening to "Looking for Someone" are *atmosphere* and *space*. So much of today's music is highly *compressed*. I'm no "pro" so maybe this song is too - but it doesn't feel like it to me. I feel like I can actually hear "empty space", creating an effect on the palette all its own. I don't mean times of absolute silence during the song. I'm talking more about the atmosphere created by musical passages in which the guitar plays single notes in perfect harmony with single notes from the keyboard. The arrangement leaves plenty of room for the music to breathe, so much space on the audio stage from which PG croons and wails.
When a music industry professional produces a young band today, they usually figure out a way to dampen the lounds, boost the quiets, and totally drench the audio spectrum until they have a wall of sound. I'm not saying that approach is entirely invalid, but it certainly contrasts with this one.
Hard to believe I let this glide right past my ears in years past. A unique set of preconceived notions on my part let to that - of course. It sure is fun to discover the depth here for the first time.
Much more listening still to come...
Prog On!
Edited by progpositivity - April 15 2010 at 20:04
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progpositivity
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Posted: April 17 2010 at 00:14 |
White Mountain.
High points:
* Mellotron provides a rich timbre to start and end the song. Very nice.
* Increased volume and tension sets the stage for wonderful contrast during the passage that follows each chorus.
* Tempo changes are very effective. The slowdown makes the ending seem even more dirge-like.
Ahem - Not high points:
* The chord progression is very common. That shouldn't be a big deal. If it *works*, it *works*. I was just surprised that it was so very predicable.
* Toward the beginning especially, there were a few moments where the guitar and drums seem just a tad 'out of sync' - "loose" might be a better way to describe it... certainly not "tight". In its own way, it is actually a little charming - in this age of digital quantize - there is something human and endearing about hearing a little *variance* from a guitarist or drummer. It makes the music seem more "real" if that makes sense.
General observation:
This drummer doesn't seem near as "juvenile" or "amateur" or "bad" as some would have had me think. OK - he's no Phil Collins (but PC is a monster drummer with fantastic chops). This drumming fits in well with the understated and reflective guitar, flute and instrumentation overall.
Conclusion:
In the end, I'll call White Mountain a good pop rock story-song. It is the atmosphere, arrangement and dramatic delivery that elevate it - not quite to greatness - but to "very-goodness". Say, 3.5 stars.
Am I missing something? Rating it too low? Feel free to let me know!
Next up: "VISIONS OF ANGELS"!
Edited by progpositivity - April 17 2010 at 00:23
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: April 17 2010 at 21:55 |
progpositivity wrote:
White Mountain.
Ahem - Not high points:
* The chord progression is very common. That shouldn't be a big deal. If it *works*, it *works*. I was just surprised that it was so very predicable.
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I disagree with this point, the fact that it's a sweet melodic track makes the song progression seem simpler that it is.
It's not a simple three tone progression, by the contrary, it's at least a mixture of several chord progressions, the problem and the merit is despite being the song long, all chords seem incomplete because they add new contradictory ideas making excellent bridges with the guitar and Mellotron, before they are finishing a chord, they add a bridge and start another one, they start "in crescendo" stay freezed in some moments and use what we call an inverse chord (in Spanish) around the 4:25 just to return to the initial chord at higher speed, anything but predictable IMO
Don't ask me more, because my piano lessons ended almost 30 years ago and what I remember is a bit limited, specially due to the language in which I learned.
I believe it's brilliant what they managed to do with a very long track (for early Prog), to make it sound so simple and easy.
To make a simple song sound complex is pretty easy doing some tricks, making a complex song sound simple is pure genius.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 17 2010 at 22:19
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American Khatru
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Posted: April 18 2010 at 06:18 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
... all chords seem incomplete because they add new contradictory ideas making excellent bridges with the guitar and Mellotron, before they are finishing a chord, they add a bridge and start another one, they start "in crescendo" stay freezed in some moments and use what we call an inverse chord (in Spanish) around the 4:25 just to return to the initial chord at higher speed.
Iván |
If you meant at the lyric "... must die", I think it's the suspended chord on the 5th (though it's not precisely and technically suspended, it ends up so due to other things going on in the production / arrangement). That whole section leading to that point is a sort of development, through instrumentation and rate, of the songs' signature chord progression. The cycling over and again of those chords is not only apt for a narrative tale on a story with an inevitable conclusion, but also lends to the pre-human legend, the pre-Christian allegory, that is the theme of the piece. All this and more I'm sure is to be found through analysis of these great early Genesis songs. But they also knew how to keep the, if you will, 'visceral' coming; as one small example, what fan doesn't still get chills from the icy opening of this song?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: April 18 2010 at 09:56 |
Yes American, seems as if they suspended that chord in a moment, but it's only an effect, the organ seeems to in fact be suspended in time as a hold inthe story (Or "congelarse" -freeze- as we say in Spanish), but the chord is not incomplete, Peter ends with the voice, it's only a fantastic effect that gives credibility to a narration.
I mentioned in a previous post a circle or cyclical chord progression, but it's not that either, because they doesn't repeat it almost exactly or with slight variations to create suspense, they add something extra on each turn and not just a repetition of the same chord.
That's why I consider this song is over looked normally.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 18 2010 at 10:37
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