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Direct Link To This Post Topic: ProgPos Blog - Genesis Studio LP Tour
    Posted: April 09 2010 at 12:13
This is a Prog *blog*.  As such, the topic shifts and changes.  
 
I've always been more of a GG and Yes fan than a Genesis or ELP fan.  Not that I didn't like Genesis, they were always OK in my book.  But I'm finally getting around to giving Genesis another chance to really break through my consciousness and to connect with me.  I'm going to give each album multiple listens, providing it my undivided attention - even wearing headphones from time to time! 
 
I've just finished 'absorbing' Trespass.  Next up is Nursery Cryme
 
You are invited to share your thoughts/observations on Nursery Cryme as I seek to let it "sink in" to my consciousness through repeated listens this week! 
 
We also have a "back-thread" going on the subject of favorite keyboard or guitar solos.  I love the guitar solo in "Carry On My Wayward Son".  Feel free to "chime in" to post your favorite solos of all time!
 
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Original Blog Post:
Many neo-proggers have tried (and most would argue that to a greater or lesser extent most have failed) to recreate the vibe of early Genesis. I'm not talking about sounding exactly the same as Genesis. I'm talking about creating a similar emotional feeling or listening experience the way Yezda Urfa or Modest Midget do for Gentle Giant fans or the way Par Lindh Project does for ELP fans.

What is it about early Genesis that made them sound so very good while performing mellow, melodramatic "prog"? And why does it so often come off sounding uninspired, lame or even downright silly when newer bands attempt to implement key elements of the early Genesis "style" either musically or vocally?

Oddly enough, when new prog bands employ stylistic elements from the guidebooks of other Prog Giants like Yes, ELP or Gentle Giant, it seems to "work" better, integrating into the end-result much more seamlessly. Of course, this observation may just the result of a personal bias on my part. I confess that I'm not a huge Genesis fan. I enjoy their music but never quite got into them as much as the other Big Greats of Prog History.

Personal bias aside, I still can't help feeling that, more often than not, the bands that are most inspired by Genesis often emerge as a type of Frankenstein monster, resembling Genesis in general form, yet curiously having undergone an unintentionally grotesque transformation during the process of coming to life.

If you agree, why do you think this is the case? If you disagree, I'd love to hear why as well.

Or perhaps this blog should take a turn toward another direction. Perhaps I should revisit the Genesis albums from start to finish again, giving them a fair chance to elevate themselves to my personal Top Tier of Prog Greatness, a position they already hold with the vast majority of Prog Fans worldwide?



Edited by progpositivity - April 26 2010 at 12:49
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2010 at 06:31
Personally, I find bands that try to imitate elements of Yes, ELP, Tull etc often also missing the mark.
 
My guess is that in the early days a band like Genesis was really pioneering in a new sound, while bands that use a lot of Genesis elements often don't have the same sense of adventure. And then it sounds like you've heard it all before.
 
Just my first guess.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2010 at 06:40
I completely agree with you Marcel but I think that retro-symph is not necessarily a lost cause. Just like it was possible to do outstanding and 100% creative works in this style (just think of Hybris), theoretically it should be possible to do it again. I think the problem lies with the approach - those who try to do a certain style will fail, those who just try to do great music will succeed. At least that's how I feel the issue.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2010 at 10:44
I think it's probably testimony to the unique summed talents and chemistry that existed in 'Gabriel' era Genesis that makes them so attractive to take inspiration from but devilish to replicate.

Although they were clearly all very highly accomplished musicians, they were in many respects one of the most 'democratic' giants of the 1st wave of proggers i.e. none of them could be deemed 'shredders' and in all their most enduring work, the whole is way more than the sum of its parts.

For me, neo prog (the chief culprits of flattery by imitation I guess)is that they had learned the ingredients but still didn't have the recipe.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2010 at 12:28
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

I completely agree with you Marcel but I think that retro-symph is not necessarily a lost cause. Just like it was possible to do outstanding and 100% creative works in this style (just think of Hybris), theoretically it should be possible to do it again. I think the problem lies with the approach - those who try to do a certain style will fail, those who just try to do great music will succeed. At least that's how I feel the issue.
 
Yes, I do agree and maybe my response was too impulsive: there is some great neo prog out there. There are both soulless imitators as well as prog chiefs cooking a wonderful meal (to use Lemming's metaphor), classic but slightly different.
 
Genesis did have many imitators, though. More Genesis imitators than Yes and ELP imitators, I have the feeling. Maybe because Genesis seemed like an easier act to follow, which was maybe a false notion and that's why many bands failed (but certainly not all)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2010 at 14:11
I think that IQ is the exception for the Genesis inspired bands. They are not missing the mark. Maybe also the Marillion Fish period.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2010 at 18:17

Some of the 1980's neo vocalists seem to have been deeply inspired by Peter Gabreil's dramatic approach. Their emoting, however, can make Peter Gabriel's thespian antics seem downright understated in comparison, can they not? Now one may like an ultra-melodramatic vocal style - so I'm not here to really *bash* that per se. But magnifying one element of classic Genesis in such a manner clearly changes the end result.  I'm curious...  Might there be a group of 80's rock music fans out there that feel these neo bands *improved* upon classic Genesis?  

It is as if some of these bands thought, "Wow, listen to the dramatic approach Genesis took in the 70's! They really abandoned their roots on this.  We can take this to the next level!  Of course, their musical interludes were way too long and drawn out. We will trim that type of "excess" from our songs so that we can tell dramatic tales while still keeping everything short and focused."
 
Then again, I'm trying to read their minds - which is a dangerous thing - but it seems plausible enough to me at the moment.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2010 at 20:31
Because imitation is at best, the same, and well we've heard that before.

When a band makes their own it ends up with something like Anglagard's Hybris.

Every musician needs to take one's own path from one's own experiences. If one is trying to imitate when one doesn't create music in a similar way, it will almost certainly not work. I know from personal experience one can get caught up in technical details and forget the true creative process.

Best to try to make your own story with music, no matter what.



Also it's not always money that motivates these bands, it's like nostalgia, but they have to break away from it or else they are stuck in the past. It's produces tough times to vist uncomfortable and new experiences, but it will be worth it in the long term.


Edited by MCP - April 11 2010 at 20:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2010 at 07:09
Originally posted by rdtprog rdtprog wrote:

I think that IQ is the exception for the Genesis inspired bands. They are not missing the mark. Maybe also the Marillion Fish period.
IQ misses the mark by several miles.  Or perhaps a more apt image: if both are like "being there", then Genesis is like you're living among the people "there", learning their customs, getting upset, falling in love, participating.  IQ is like seeing the place from a car, with an audio tour guide.



Edited by American Khatru - April 12 2010 at 07:10

Why must my spell-checker continually underline the word "prog"?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2010 at 07:17
Originally posted by American Khatru American Khatru wrote:

Originally posted by rdtprog rdtprog wrote:

I think that IQ is the exception for the Genesis inspired bands. They are not missing the mark. Maybe also the Marillion Fish period.
IQ misses the mark by several miles.  Or perhaps a more apt image: if both are like "being there", then Genesis is like you're living among the people "there", learning their customs, getting upset, falling in love, participating.  IQ is like seeing the place from a car, with an audio tour guide.



Yes your response is like a image that exagerate the reality with a good dose of imagination. It doesn't convince me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2010 at 07:46

Actually I would say that Anglagard and Sinkadus really managed to bring the spirit of Genesis alive (especially the 71-72 sound), without sounding all too derivative.

Marillion's Fish tried to sound like Genesis but became more interesting to me when they left that legacy behind on Fugazi and Misplaced Childhood.
And don't bring up IQ or I'll get bad-tempered!

By the way, I haven't heard any Yes or ELP reproduction yet that I haven't been running away from at full speed!



Edited by Bonnek - April 12 2010 at 07:46
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2010 at 07:50
^ Two YES inspired recommendations:


4.35 | 76 ratings
Boris
1975


3.77 | 9 ratings
Holdfénykert - Enhanced and Remastered
2008

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2010 at 10:32
Ah yes that Boris, I was only thinking of stuff from the 80's and later!

Eh, Holditujzzjbjbbb who? Confused
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2010 at 10:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2010 at 14:52
I've never been big on these guys even before they sold out. I do throw some of their older albums on the turntable occasionaly and still can't figure out what the big deal is/was. I recently put Trespass on and it just sounded so dated.

I think Marillion were successful with their first 3 albums was because the death of 70s prog was still fresh in a lot of minds then they found their own groove and I even like some of the Rothery stuff. Can't stand it when he does the older Fish songs though.
 In some sections of the planet prog didn't even really die. In Montréal where I live they are still big along with ELP ( Emerson & Lake play here tomorrow ) Supertramp, Gentle Giant and King Crimson. In the few record stores that are left you never find those sections empty.

Never mind bands that model themseves after Genesis, Genesis themselves can't even, or don't have the heart to play  the older material and I get the impression that they would rather leave that up to cover bands like The Musical Box. I saw them a couple of summers ago and itwas just the old farts that got something out ofthe few older tracks that they played. Just a glance at the older material on the When In Rome DVD. The Musical bBox does a great job if you want to hear a Genesis clone band and I've seen them several times.

I don't think there's anything wrong with borrowing from the older prog bands but there has to be something new. Although their covers are somewhat generic I like some of the covers that Dream Theatre have done obver the years. It's always a  nice suprise to listen to a band that can actually do justice to old Crimson or Gentle Giant tracks as well. I heard a reggae band do House Of The King recently.
That's my two cents for ow.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2010 at 16:38
Hi There.
I have been involved in writing and recording music in bands and as a solo artist. I agree that there are some bands who go out of their way to sound exactly like the early Prog greats. But something I have found over the years is that it's easy to review or cast aside modern bands as copycat bands, just because some of their sound is similar to that of a band of years gone by. For example, I have always loved and enjoyed the harmony vocals of Simon and Garfunkle, Dan Fogelberg, Crosby, Stills and Nash, The Beach Boys to name but a few, but in the past I have been accused of being an Anderson or Collins copycat, Knowone has ever accused me of being a Wilson or Fogelberg copycat, when really that is where my harmony ideas stem from. Just because I put my ideas to Progressive sounding music, it seems any ideas I put down for massed harmony vocals, means I'm trying to be Jon Anderson. The "oh they sound like" remark is a good way of helping people to know what kind of music they may get from a recording, but reviewers often use this as a quick line which sometimes hides what is really going on on the latest bands efforts. They don't look any deeper.   I sang on a recording once where different reviewers described me as sounding like Anderson, Collins, Gabriel, Michael Stype, Sting, Hogarth, Fish, And even Fergal Sharkey. all different coments from different reviewers about the same album. Do any of these side by side, really sound like each other. I think a lot of the time its not the artists that sound amazingly like the bands of yesterday, but just some listeners who are so wrapped up in their past and the bands from their youth that they cannot embrace new bands playing instruments and songs similar to the their hero's. Lets face it there are only a certain amount of sounds one can make, and they've all been made before. You either like it or you don't . Simples.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2010 at 17:14
Yes Lorien, I understand what your saying. It's easy to be negative about a band that had a similar sound to some big bands of the past. When there's so many bands making progressive music since the 70s, its difficult not to be compare to some bands at some points in the history of prog music. But i think that bands should not  try to copy a style of band when they made a album. But it's also almost impossible to avoid any similarity in a style of bands with some bands of the past. If those bans can be a source of inspiration, why  not use this and still create our own style. It's like a painter who use the same colours of everyone, but when he combines everything in his own way, it gaves a orginal work of art. Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2010 at 17:27
Fergal Sharkey!  Shocked  Wow - it has been a long time since I've heard that name!  As a DJ in broadcast radio, I used to play some of his music on a Rock station in the 1980's.  Anyone remember "A Good Heart" or "You Little Thief"?  (I'm not so sure very many around here would *want* to... Great vocalist IMO!)
 
Perhaps if every reviewer compared you to a single vocalist, it might be worth asking whether you were consciously copying that particular vocalist and how effective that approach was for you...
 
But it sounds like you have people favorably comparing you to a wide variety of vocalists, so I would tend to think that you must be doing something right! 
 
I was trying to refer more to bands that really seem to be going out of their way to capture the GENESIS style - to clone it so to speak...  Then again, come to think of it, perhaps I had some French bands in the back of my mind - bands that key onto the dramatic element of Gabriel's vocals and emote theirs like crazy. 
 
But I know what you mean about expectations.  If we get to stuck looking in the rear-view mirror, everything up ahead of us starts seeming "derivative".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2010 at 21:35

I always believed it's easier to be inspired in a band based mostly in the virtuoso attributes of their members, in the case of YES, Wakeman (one of the most talented musicians) was replaced by Kaye, Moraz and even Briskin (Yes Symphonic) and they all did great jobs, because they were following one man.

Yes with master Steve Howe and Trevor Rabin, sounded almost as good on stage, because Trevor was replacing only Steve Howe, and even when Steve is a genius, his playing is more based in his personal skills than in a tight interplay with the keyboardist..

In the case of Genesis, if you want to replace Banks, you need to replace also Steve Hackett, because the interplay between both was the base of the atmospheric trademark of Genesis, Gabriel left, the band lost a lot, Hackett left and the band was doomed to make Pop music. 

Yes was a band with high egos, and a very good musician can replace a great musician who wants to shine over the rest, but you can't do the same with a band like Genesis with 5 extremely talented musicians but with smaller egos, who always gave priority to the band interplay than to their personal shinning.

For God's sake, nobody could imagine Yes without Jon Anderson, and already they had 4 vocalists and always sounded great on stage.
 
If you want to be inspired in Yes, you have to follow the music and have one or two musicians capable of taking the place of one or two key members of Yes, if you want to be inspired in Genesis, you need 5 musicians able to replace the whole band and willing to leave their personal aspirations for the sake of the band, and that's hard.
 
My two cents.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 12 2010 at 21:41
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2010 at 16:25
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

In the case of Genesis, if you want to replace Banks, you need to replace also Steve Hackett, because the interplay between both was the base of the atmospheric trademark of Genesis, Gabriel left, the band lost a lot, Hackett left and the band was doomed to make Pop music. 

 
Very interesting points Ivan.  At first listen, Genesis *sounds* easier to imitate because there are not as many  singularly dominant performances, thus more neo-proggers were emboldened to "give it a go".   But successfully "pulling it off" is deceptively difficult due to the subtlety of the interplay among the varous components of classic era Genesis music.
 
On a side-note, perhaps Genesis' reductionist future was sealed when they quit replacing band members.  They transitioned quite successfully (IMO) when AP left and SH stepped in.  But losing SH without a strong replacement... That set the stage for the deconstruction that would follow.
 
Whenever Yes hasn't replaced a departing member with a similarly strong composer, they too have deconstructed (Drama, Open Your Eyes, etc.)


Edited by progpositivity - April 13 2010 at 16:30
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