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Dellinger 
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Joined: June 18 2009
Location: Mexico
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Points: 12732
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 Posted: March 20 2010 at 23:21 |
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ELP being humourless? I'd certainly not think that. So they get bashed for having all those fillers on an album, and then they get accused of being humourless? When as a matter of fact all those fillers are mainly jokes? And I mean jokes in a good sense: even though I mostly don't like those songs, they are short pieces and if Keith or Greg felt like putting them on the album, well, it's their album, and it's obvious those songs aren't supposed to be taken as seriously as the "serious" masterpieces of the album.
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uduwudu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 17 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 2601
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 00:42 |
 Dellinger wrote:
ELP being humourless? I'd certainly not think that. So they get bashed for having all those fillers on an album, and then they get accused of being humourless? |
Detractors are not known for logic. And ELP have more than their share of detractors. [/QUOTE] When as a matter of fact all those fillers are mainly jokes? [/QUOTE] And I mean jokes in a good sense: even though I mostly don't like those songs, they are short pieces and if Keith or Greg felt like putting them on the album, well, it's their album, and it's obvious those songs aren't supposed to be taken as seriously as the "serious" masterpieces of the album.[/QUOTE] Yes, I think of them as being like the cartoons in a newspaper. Mind you, in that case the humour is probably the most enjoyable bit on that case. Successful humour in progressive rock - ELP but especially Tull with all of Brick (art included.) Zappa. Unsuccessful humour in progressive rock - Tull - Too Old To To Rock And Roll etc. But how about the um, lesser moments on Works?I'd rather listen to Eddie and Benny than Greg Lake's Works ballads. NP: BSS
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 01:13 |
Harry Hood wrote:
Greg Lake. |
You know, I have to say, whether intentional or not, your signature is incredibly insulting and disrespectful to the memory of mister Rick Wright. I don't understand why you haven't changed it by this point. Perhaps it's meant to be funny, but it isn't.
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The Wrinkler
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 03 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 638
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 01:27 |
dude i just realized harry hood's signature, that made me rofl 
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progkidjoel
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 02 2009
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 19643
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 01:32 |
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Nothing at all, they were one of the bands who got me into prog.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 02:51 |
The Wrinkler wrote:
dude i just realized harry hood's signature, that made me rofl
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Okay, so maybe it's a little funny . . . 
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28064
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Posted: March 22 2010 at 15:52 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
Gerinski wrote:
O666 wrote:
Keith is wild player and he plays like god. Carl is powerful and he has pretty good technic and Greg balanced keith wild and his voice had commercial potential ( like collins). This combination can make magneficence masterpiece but it never happened. Every prog legends have 1 or more masterpiece but ELP dont have ONE 5 STAR ALBUM. One of friends told " they have many 5 star songs". I agree with that but they dont have 5 star album. |
Sorry but I totally disagree. The masterpieces of ELP did happen. Actually quite a few of them, and I don't mean just masterpiece songs but masterpiece albums. A soccer team with 1 or 2 weaker players out of the 11 can still be a superteam if the other 9 or 10 are among the best in the world. Many masterpiece albums by other bands have also their weaker moments and yet they still deserve being called masterpieces.
I repeat, to me ELP debut, Pictures, Tarkus, Trilogy, BSS and Welcome Back all qualify as 5-star masterpieces.
Obviously it's a matter of taste, but I feel like many people have a strange negative bias against ELP compared to other great prog bands. |
Although I do broadly agree with this (after all I'm an ELP fanboy crusty) your post does highlight one of the anomalies re interpretation of the ratings system for album reviews. Of the entire ELP discography, I have rated only Brain Salad Surgery as 5 stars because every single track on that critter IMO is quite brilliant. Trilogy, Pictures, Tarkus and to a lesser extent, the debut are but a small kick in the backside off 5 stars but do contain flaws that force me to mark lower. How many times have you read a fawning review of say Crimson, Yes, Tull or Genesis where the reviewer states something along the lines of:
This track is a bit poppy/boring/silly/simple for me but you cant deny it, the remainder is a masterpiece of progressive rock music ***** ?
There was even one deluded piece of hirsute plankton who rated 2112 by Rush as 5 stars and admitted he thought all of side two of the album sucked ?! (Has he considered suing his parents for malpractice?)
So, are we forced to conclude that all ELP fans try to be honest and as objective as possible with regards their fave band or that the remainder are a disingenuous rabble of barely literate apologists for patchy masterpieces ?
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Yeah I can relate to that easily as I only gave BSS 5 stars amongst ELP's back catologue yet have given other bands such as Yes,Pink Floyd,Genesis 5 stars for more than one album .Yet ELP are my favourite band 
However I believe there is an issue with ELP's albums in that they don't always flow well and come across as unfocused. Part of the reason is that ELP were a 'schizophrenic' band struggling at times to focus attention on creating and developing single ideas.A case of too much talent in one place trying to express itself all at the same time perhaps. Or maybe too much jostling for position of the sizeable egos.This in itself took some sorting out and my feeling is that they were only truly succesfull in creating a masterpice with BSS.It flows well from to start to finish with Benny The Bouncer acting as a sort of interlude. Its only 2 minutes long but the fact that so many knock a mark off just because of its existence is extemely annoying! Jersualem makes total sense as an opener with its themes of early industrial advances in opposition with nature (as I see it). Toccata is the world spinning out of control before Still.. You Turn Me On offers some respite- light to the previous darkness.This is highly satisfying.BTB is just a bit of nonsense before the main event which has been set up perfectly by the first 3 tracks.
BSS rates so highly in my mind that I cannot believe that any other ELP album deserves to be regarded as its 'equal'. So the other albums have to be marked down 
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XunknownX
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 02 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 158
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Posted: March 22 2010 at 22:16 |
The Truth wrote:
Padraic wrote:
Nothing. |
Well said |
I was just going to wright that myself.
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
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Posted: March 22 2010 at 22:27 |
richardh wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
Gerinski wrote:
O666 wrote:
Keith is wild player and he plays like god. Carl is powerful and he has pretty good technic and Greg balanced keith wild and his voice had commercial potential ( like collins). This combination can make magneficence masterpiece but it never happened. Every prog legends have 1 or more masterpiece but ELP dont have ONE 5 STAR ALBUM. One of friends told " they have many 5 star songs". I agree with that but they dont have 5 star album. |
Sorry but I totally disagree. The masterpieces of ELP did happen. Actually quite a few of them, and I don't mean just masterpiece songs but masterpiece albums. A soccer team with 1 or 2 weaker players out of the 11 can still be a superteam if the other 9 or 10 are among the best in the world. Many masterpiece albums by other bands have also their weaker moments and yet they still deserve being called masterpieces.
I repeat, to me ELP debut, Pictures, Tarkus, Trilogy, BSS and Welcome Back all qualify as 5-star masterpieces.
Obviously it's a matter of taste, but I feel like many people have a strange negative bias against ELP compared to other great prog bands. |
Although I do broadly agree with this (after all I'm an ELP fanboy crusty) your post does highlight one of the anomalies re interpretation of the ratings system for album reviews. Of the entire ELP discography, I have rated only Brain Salad Surgery as 5 stars because every single track on that critter IMO is quite brilliant. Trilogy, Pictures, Tarkus and to a lesser extent, the debut are but a small kick in the backside off 5 stars but do contain flaws that force me to mark lower. How many times have you read a fawning review of say Crimson, Yes, Tull or Genesis where the reviewer states something along the lines of:
This track is a bit poppy/boring/silly/simple for me but you cant deny it, the remainder is a masterpiece of progressive rock music ***** ?
There was even one deluded piece of hirsute plankton who rated 2112 by Rush as 5 stars and admitted he thought all of side two of the album sucked ?! (Has he considered suing his parents for malpractice?)
So, are we forced to conclude that all ELP fans try to be honest and as objective as possible with regards their fave band or that the remainder are a disingenuous rabble of barely literate apologists for patchy masterpieces ?
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Yeah I can relate to that easily as I only gave BSS 5 stars amongst ELP's back catologue yet have given other bands such as Yes,Pink Floyd,Genesis 5 stars for more than one album .Yet ELP are my favourite band
However I believe there is an issue with ELP's albums in that they don't always flow well and come across as unfocused. Part of the reason is that ELP were a 'schizophrenic' band struggling at times to focus attention on creating and developing single ideas.A case of too much talent in one place trying to express itself all at the same time perhaps. Or maybe too much jostling for position of the sizeable egos.This in itself took some sorting out and my feeling is that they were only truly succesfull in creating a masterpice with BSS.It flows well from to start to finish with Benny The Bouncer acting as a sort of interlude. Its only 2 minutes long but the fact that so many knock a mark off just because of its existence is extemely annoying! Jersualem makes total sense as an opener with its themes of early industrial advances in opposition with nature (as I see it). Toccata is the world spinning out of control before Still.. You Turn Me On offers some respite- light to the previous darkness.This is highly satisfying.BTB is just a bit of nonsense before the main event which has been set up perfectly by the first 3 tracks.
BSS rates so highly in my mind that I cannot believe that any other ELP album deserves to be regarded as its 'equal'. So the other albums have to be marked down |
Bravo, you have just articulated quite brilliantly the dilemma ELP presents to their most fervent supporters re review ratings of albums by their favourite band.  Wish I'd thought of that.  BTW Glad to see you made the connection with Jerusalem representing the original uncorrupted world i.e. pre -industrial and BC (before computers) 
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geoffbarra
Forum Newbie
Joined: September 25 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 20
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Posted: March 22 2010 at 22:28 |
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I have been following this topic for some time - and am pleased to discover many like-minded ELP fans.
Keith Emerson was my teen idol - an amazing musician and showman who had the same hairstyle that I had (or was that the other way round?).
Of course music is simply a matter of personal taste and 5 stars - or no stars for an album is just a matter of opinion.
I love ALL of ELPs albums and rate each 5 stars.
Pirates and Officer and a Gentleman are (in my opinion) fantastic marriages of atmospheric music with story telling and emotional lyrics - that no other band has even attempted.
'Benny the Bouncer', 'Jeremy Bender' and and even 'The sheriff' are great 'pub' songs - and 'Daddy' is one of the most poignant songs I have ever heard....and the Piano Concerto, I think, is an awesome piece of music....
ELP had so many different sounds - that ALL their music is unlikely to appeal to EVERYONE - but in all honesty they could probably make even rap appealing - to me.
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Without Prog - where would wise men be...?
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
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Posted: March 22 2010 at 23:41 |
geoffbarra wrote:
I have been following this topic for some time - and am pleased to discover many like-minded ELP fans.
Keith Emerson was my teen idol - an amazing musician and showman who had the same hairstyle that I had (or was that the other way round?).
Of course music is simply a matter of personal taste and 5 stars - or no stars for an album is just a matter of opinion.
I love ALL of ELPs albums and rate each 5 stars.
Pirates and Officer and a Gentleman are (in my opinion) fantastic marriages of atmospheric music with story telling and emotional lyrics - that no other band has even attempted.
'Benny the Bouncer', 'Jeremy Bender' and and even 'The sheriff' are great 'pub' songs - and 'Daddy' is one of the most poignant songs I have ever heard....and the Piano Concerto, I think, is an awesome piece of music....
ELP had so many different sounds - that ALL their music is unlikely to appeal to EVERYONE - but in all honesty they could probably make even rap appealing - to me.
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Excellent post certainly but THIS ! Surely not ? Who am I to ride roughshod over personal taste but Daddy is one of the most shamefully manipulative and disingenuous little heart tuggers I have heard in a long, long while. Perhaps ELP could make rap appealing (perish the thought) but not even ELP can make In the Hot Seat appealing
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geoffbarra
Forum Newbie
Joined: September 25 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 20
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Posted: March 23 2010 at 19:28 |
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Lemming
Hi
I guess I understand your point of view - taking this song (Daddy) on face value - however, living through a (very) similar experience - thank the Lord though with a much happier ending!!! it obviously has more meaning to me than the 'average' (not that I am suggesting in any way that you're average LOL) listener.
- Which goes back to my point about music being totally and simply a matter of opinion - without which we would not have forums like this to meet. (well above 'average') new people!
One thing though - whatever the merits - or otherwise, of a particular song no one can possibly argue about the relative talents of these three outstanding musicians.
...looking forward to seeing the old gits back together for the High Voltage Festival in London this summer...!
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Without Prog - where would wise men be...?
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Bitterblogger
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 04 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1719
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Posted: March 23 2010 at 20:28 |
b4usleep wrote:
Debut XXXXX
Tarkus XXXXX
Trilogy XXXXX
Pictures at an Exhibition XXXXX
Brain Salad Surgery XXXXX
Works Vol.1 XXX
Works Vol.2 XXXX
Love Beach X
Black Moon XXX
In the Hot Seat (No Idea)
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That's what's wrong. In The Hot Seat is barely better. And I don't think there are many who would rank Works Vol. 2 as highly. So there's quite a fall-off after the halfway point.
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uduwudu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 17 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 2601
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Posted: March 23 2010 at 20:59 |
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Bitterlogger is right.
IMHO Works 1 was as if ELP confused their 'Tales' with their solo albums as Yes kept their worlds apart.
Works 2 is not so bad, as an album. But Works should have catapulted ELP to PF heights but perhaps just blurred the issue with the bland ballads and soundtrack fusion from Carl Palmer.
I do have to say that their live albums are excellent performances. There is the caveat that some of the performances are licensed and disguised (especially moments of WBMFTTSTNE) as new(ish) issues. Vut the 1996 live is a great performance, as is the King Biscuit release.
The bootleg Boxes (I have the first 2 only) are fine performances but given the audience sourced recordings and the one board, - a somewhat muted 77 set they should be appraoched with caution.
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28064
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Posted: March 24 2010 at 15:44 |
geoffbarra wrote:
Lemming
Hi
I guess I understand your point of view - taking this song (Daddy) on face value - however, living through a (very) similar experience - thank the Lord though with a much happier ending!!! it obviously has more meaning to me than the 'average' (not that I am suggesting in any way that you're average LOL) listener.
- Which goes back to my point about music being totally and simply a matter of opinion - without which we would not have forums like this to meet. (well above 'average') new people!
One thing though - whatever the merits - or otherwise, of a particular song no one can possibly argue about the relative talents of these three outstanding musicians.
...looking forward to seeing the old gits back together for the High Voltage Festival in London this summer...!
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In The Hot Seat (sometimes dubbed' In The Toilet') was an album so bad that it actually hastened the collpase of Victory Records. However if there is one salvageable moment then it is Daddy. I am absolutely sure that this was a genuine heartfelt message from Greg Lake.
High voltage will be great although I'm champing at the bit to know who else is playing on Sunday. Please let it include Focus and Argent
Edited by richardh - March 24 2010 at 15:46
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geoffbarra
Forum Newbie
Joined: September 25 2007
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 20
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Posted: March 24 2010 at 19:52 |
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richardh
Hi
...pleased to hear your endorsement of "Daddy" - a song that definitely has deep meaning (to me anyway!)
With regards to "In The Hot Seat" - I hear you...however if this album had been released by some Pop ballad singer/group - or even a Greg Lake solo effort - it would have received more critical aclaim. Taken in the context of previous ELP music I can understand it getting slammed, but that is due to the extremely high expectations ELP created and the style of music they were expected to produce.
Pretend 'In The Hot Seat' is not an ELP album and then it has some merit...(ah, I guess I'm just a sentimental old fart.)
Please let it be Pendragon and/or Marillion on Sunday...!Big Smile
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Without Prog - where would wise men be...?
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28064
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Posted: March 25 2010 at 02:47 |
geoffbarra wrote:
richardh
Hi
...pleased to hear your endorsement of "Daddy" - a song that definitely has deep meaning (to me anyway!)
With regards to "In The Hot Seat" - I hear you...however if this album had been released by some Pop ballad singer/group - or even a Greg Lake solo effort - it would have received more critical aclaim. Taken in the context of previous ELP music I can understand it getting slammed, but that is due to the extremely high expectations ELP created and the style of music they were expected to produce.
Pretend 'In The Hot Seat' is not an ELP album and then it has some merit...(ah, I guess I'm just a sentimental old fart.)
Please let it be Pendragon and/or Marillion on Sunday...!Big Smile
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For me though that is the problem..its not an ELP album. One of the tracks 'Gone Too Soon' even has a session drummer and keyboard player which is shocking really. I genuinely wish they hadn't put their name to it and it had been released under a pseudonym then I wouldn't have had to buy it and listen to it.
Marillion would be nice although I started falling out of love with them after Brave.
Pendragon never did it for me although I quite like Clive Nolan's work with Arena.
Edited by richardh - March 25 2010 at 02:50
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halabalushindigus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 05 2009
Location: San Diego
Status: Offline
Points: 1438
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Posted: March 25 2010 at 03:01 |
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I'm so stuck and bored here in San Diego USA wish I was in the U.K. you guys be safe and have fun on sunday
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assume the power 1586/14.3
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halabalushindigus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 05 2009
Location: San Diego
Status: Offline
Points: 1438
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Posted: March 25 2010 at 03:21 |
Ladies and Gentlemen;
In Concert
Emerson
Lake
Palmer performing "Picture Of a Tarkus"
mon 09 10 9:30p
Croydon Gate Manor-Gentlemen's Club Weybridge
Plaeso no wallflowers
Men 25.00$ Ladies free
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assume the power 1586/14.3
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boo boo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 905
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Posted: March 26 2010 at 17:18 |
The s/t debut, Trilogy and Brain Salad Surgery are all fantastic albums with very little filler. Tarkus is my favorite piece of music from ELP, the album itself is unven, the second side has Bitches Crystal, Infinite Space and Time and a Place which are pretty strong, but it also has Jeremy Bender and The Only Way which are average/mediocre and Are You Ready Eddie? which is all kinds of terribad, though to be fair it is a joke song.
Works II has some great stuff too, since it's mostly outtakes from these albums.
After that, yeah, dark times indeed.
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What's wrong with ELP?
