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Points: 8543 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2010 at 16:21
Originally posted by ClemofNazareth ClemofNazareth wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ if it is true, than it's fairly similar to most existing laws concerning car insurance.


As I mentioned before, auto insurance is a law (and should be a law) because driving potentially endangers others.  If we run into another car, and it's our fault, we have insurance to pay for the damages and medical expenses of the other party.

True, but your car insurance doesn't prevent danger to others, it simply provides funds to pay if they are injured.  Following the same logic, if you are ill and become hospitalized and can't pay for it, the cost burden is generally borne by the rest of us in the form of either higher hospital charges for us to offset your costs, or by having your expenses paid for by government funds (Medicare, Medicaid, an indigent program, etc.).

IMHO this is really little different than other community expenses like police and fire departments.  Can you imagine a society where only those who houses burn down are asked to pay the cost of the fire department, or only those who have been victimized by a crime are asked to pay for the police?


 
I suggest the truly awesome sci-fi novel Jennifer Government by Max Barry, which discusses this theme.  If your house is burning and you can't afford the fire department:  too bad.  If a family member dies and you want justice, you have to pay the police to investigate the murder, etc. 
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Government
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Points: 32553 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2010 at 16:25
Originally posted by ClemofNazareth ClemofNazareth wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ if it is true, than it's fairly similar to most existing laws concerning car insurance.


As I mentioned before, auto insurance is a law (and should be a law) because driving potentially endangers others.  If we run into another car, and it's our fault, we have insurance to pay for the damages and medical expenses of the other party.

True, but your car insurance doesn't prevent danger to others, it simply provides funds to pay if they are injured.  Following the same logic, if you are ill and become hospitalized and can't pay for it, the cost burden is generally borne by the rest of us in the form of either higher hospital charges for us to offset your costs, or by having your expenses paid for by government funds (Medicare, Medicaid, an indigent program, etc.).

IMHO this is really little different than other community expenses like police and fire departments.  Can you imagine a society where only those who houses burn down are asked to pay the cost of the fire department, or only those who have been victimized by a crime are asked to pay for the police?




Precisely why very early in this thread I proposed basic localized health care systems (we don't have a national police or fire department, do we?), which in turn would minimalize the role of health insurance altogether.
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Points: 65613 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2010 at 16:54
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

we don't have a national police department, do we?


well yeah, we do, several actually:  U.S. Marshal Service,  FBI,  Treasury
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Points: 3449 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2010 at 17:04
^^ATF
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Points: 10679 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2010 at 17:05
You know Rob, your idea might be a good one. Now I don't mean this as a sarcastic or rhetorical question, but I was wondering why the Republicans never attempted or even proposed something like that while they had all three branches of the government.
By the way, I'm an independent and many in my extended family are very active in the Republican party.
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2010 at 17:28
People should not be afraid of calling things their true name. I don't know why but Socialism is a word that people in the US fear more than homicide, pedophilia or satanism. Why? I don't know. I'm sure it's all in the country's genes. It would take too much time and effort to answer that. 

 
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Points: 4659 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2010 at 18:35
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

we don't have a national police department, do we?


well yeah, we do, several actually:  U.S. Marshal Service,  FBI,  Treasury

... Federal Protective Service, DEA, Secret Service, Indian Bureau Police, NIS, CID, Diplomatic Security Service, U.S. Park Police, U.S. Customs, Border Patrol, Air Marshals, U.S. Prison Police, .....

But I do find the idea of state or regional health authorities appealing, except that without federal funding and oversight there would be inequities not unlike those we see today with Medicaid and state risk pools (not to mention gross inconsistencies in state insurance regulations).

 
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Points: 65613 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2010 at 18:59
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

People should not be afraid of calling things their true name. I don't know why but Socialism is a word that people in the US fear more than homicide, pedophilia or satanism. Why? I don't know. I'm sure it's all in the country's genes. It would take too much time and effort to answer that. 


no that's exactly what it is: genes--  we have a tradition (a very young one) of fierce personal independence, partly because it was necessary to survive and thrive in such a huge, undeveloped country (I'm sure this is true other places too, as Australia)..it explains the role of guns in US culture as well as an abhorrence to something like Socialism
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2010 at 19:10
I am always very wary of using the word 'genes' as regards cultural behaviour, since something similar could be said about Italians (and I've heard some people say it in the past) - that is, that we have dishonesty in our genes. Now, if somebody said something like that to my face, I'd probably rip their own face to shreds.  I am a very honest person, and so was all my family -  my dad was the most honest person I've ever known - though I was born and bred in Italy from Italian parents. I believe cultural conditioning can be extremely strong, but to talk about genes is potentially very dangerous. 
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Points: 65613 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2010 at 19:20
well 'genes' in a rhetorical way, but yes, 'tradition' or 'culture' would probably be better terms
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Points: 32553 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2010 at 19:43
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

You know Rob, your idea might be a good one. Now I don't mean this as a sarcastic or rhetorical question, but I was wondering why the Republicans never attempted or even proposed something like that while they had all three branches of the government.
By the way, I'm an independent and many in my extended family are very active in the Republican party.


Because it's not a "Republican" idea, I suppose.  Our politics boil down to a lot of blind partisan loyalty and reductive fallacies.  Thumbs Down

A basic localized health care system is,  I guess, a moderate view.  I swing hard right on most things, but I in earnest think our health care is too expensive, but it's not because of greedy doctors or evil corporations (that's one popular reductive fallacy).  We need a combination of tort reform (first), so that doctors can lower their fees (and afford to be competitive rather than hamstrung because of malpractice insurance), and then I think we could explore letting local governments manage a health care system that would benefit whomever needed basic care (instead of being told, "Your child just has a ______; it will go away in a few days on its own.  That will be $200").
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2010 at 19:56
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


A basic localized health care system is,  I guess, a moderate view.  I swing hard right on most things, but I in earnest think our health care is too expensive, but it's not because of greedy doctors or evil corporations (that's one popular reductive fallacy).  We need a combination of tort reform (first), so that doctors can lower their fees (and afford to be competitive rather than hamstrung because of malpractice insurance), and then I think we could explore letting local governments manage a health care system that would benefit whomever needed basic care (instead of being told, "Your child just has a ______; it will go away in a few days on its own.  That will be $200").


That's why I think we should expand access to nurse practitioners. They charge a whole lot less and perfectly competent, especially for little things. Let the doctors worry about brain surgery and broken bones. Nurses can handle everyday illnesses for much less money. Unfortunately, there's a bit of a stigma against them. "I'm not taking my child to a nurse! I demand a real doctor!."
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2010 at 19:57
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

I am always very wary of using the word 'genes' as regards cultural behaviour, since something similar could be said about Italians (and I've heard some people say it in the past) - that is, that we have dishonesty in our genes. Now, if somebody said something like that to my face, I'd probably rip their own face to shreds. 


Maybe you have violence in your genes. Tongue
(I'm only kidding, please don't hurt me.)
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Points: 3449 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2010 at 20:00
"how come Jesus gets Industrial Disease"
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Points: 10679 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2010 at 20:24
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

You know Rob, your idea might be a good one. Now I
don't mean this as a sarcastic or rhetorical question, but I was
wondering why the Republicans never attempted or even proposed something
like that while they had all three branches of the government.
By the way, I'm an independent and many in my extended family are
very active in the Republican party.


Because it's
not a "Republican" idea, I suppose.  Our politics boil down to a lot of
blind partisan loyalty and reductive fallacies.  Thumbs Down
    
A basic localized health care system is,  I guess, a moderate view.  I
swing hard right on most things, but I in earnest think our health care
is too expensive, but it's not because of greedy doctors or evil
corporations (that's one popular reductive fallacy).  We need a
combination of tort reform (first), so that doctors can lower their fees
(and afford to be competitive rather than hamstrung because of
malpractice insurance), and then I think we could explore letting local
governments manage a health care system that would benefit whomever
needed basic care (instead of being told, "Your child just has a ______;
it will go away in a few days on its own.  That will be $200").
    



Thanks for an honest non-evasive answer.
I hope this 'reform' is good, otherwise we're screwed, ha ha. Right now I think we're being somewhat milked by the insurance industry, I have hopes there will be closer regulation of their profits, we shall see.
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2010 at 20:33
YOu know, even though these political threads occasionally get out of hand, I have to say the Progarchives crowd are general classier and more willing to listen than people on other forums I've visited. Maybe it's because we think forty-five minute political rants are really just concept albums waiting for a mellotron.
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Points: 17309 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2010 at 20:42
"Selling America by the Geiko"  ???Wink
...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Points: 32553 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2010 at 20:45
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

"Selling America by the Geiko"  ???Wink


Close to the Hedge Fund
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Points: 17309 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2010 at 21:06
Dark Side of the (Operating) Room

OK, I'll stop...

Anyway, I forgot, Floyd aren't progWink
...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Points: 3904 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2010 at 21:12

Just remember Health Care Reform does NOT mean free Health Care. The taxpayers will ultimately pay for this enormously high cost bill.
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