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DavetheSlave 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: May 23 2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 492 |
 Posted: March 08 2010 at 02:24 |
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I wish people would stop mentioning Dream Theater and Metallica in the same sentance with statements such as Metallica set the standards that Dream Theater followed. If you want to hear the standard that DT followed then listen to Deep Purples Made in Japan album or listen to Rainbow Live on Stage. If you want to hear who Petrucci follows then listen to Balckmore. The same applies to Paice / Portnoy, Gillian / La Brie, Lord / the various Dream Theater keyboard exponents over time, Glover / Myung. Dream Theater did a couple of tracks that incorporate the Metallica sound and they did a cover of a Metallica album - they did the same with Pink Floyd and with Iron Maiden.
They took the Deep Purple sound and dragged it into the late 20th century to the present period.
For anyone to succesfully achieve that relating to Deep Purple (arguably the best live rock band that the world has ever seen) then they must be or soon will be legends relating not only to Prog Metal but to Prog music in general.
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: March 08 2010 at 03:32 |
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It's kinda hard to escape the truth
I know both very well, and the comparisons are not as good as the comparison with Metallica - and neither are Prog Rock either - so my point stands.
The former are old school Hard Rock/Heavy Metal, with true jazz-influenced improvisation.
The latter set the standard for modern day heavy metal, and the only jazz influences that are left in metal tend to be the various scale modes used - this is completely different to the jazz "approach".
I remain totally unconvinced - but that doesn't really make a difference to the point that Dream Theater are not "Prog" metal.
Petrucci sounds very little like Blackmore - although if he was influenced by him, who am I to disagree. Same goes for the other instrumentalists - I fail to hear any real similarities.
Not just that - there were quite a few tracks with actual Metallica riffs in - it's not just the sound. Metallica also famously "borrowed" riffs from others - yet did not end up sounding like Saxon, Vardis, Holocaust, Bleak House, Judas Priest, Motorhead, Bad Brains et al, rather a new fusion of all the old metal (and occasional punk) styles.
DT wrote far more tracks that attempted to imitate the Metallica/Maiden compositional style of;
Long, possibly multi-part intro
Verse/chorus standard song, with instrumental fills
Extended multi-part instrumental
Return to standard song
Possible multi-part outro
This basic underlying structure is inherent in most of Dream Theater's early work and yes, it's present to some extent in some Deep Purple and Rainbow. It crystallised in Metallica's music, where previous bands had used it intermittently - but Metallica went much further, compositionally speaking - and compositionally is where it's important when considering "Prog", not the "sound".
Yes, and "Made In Japan", and some Rainbow songs...
Their cover of "Master..." was truly awful - Petrucci couldn't manage Hammett's solos, and the band did not "get" the album at all. I didn't bother listening to the others, but I'm listening now in only slight pain to their cover of Stargazer.
No-one, and I mean No-one can sing like Ronnie James Dio - but DT don't actually bring anything to the song.
Why cover something note for note? Anyone can do that.
Actually, as the song drags on, I'm getting progressively more and more in pain at those awful vocals, and listening to Petrucci murdering the solo, I wonder if he's actually listened to the original very much and appreciated the feeling that Blackmore put in.
That's your opinion - I don't hear it, and I've been a fan of Purple for longer than I can remember.
The only justification I hear for your argument is that Purple had keyboards and Metallica didn't.
However, Purple had magnificent Hammond organ playing courtesy of Lord, and DT have, er, well, I guess they may have ahd a Hammond - but not on any of the tracks I've heard, and the keyboard playing is not reminiscent of Lord's in the slightest. It lacks the whole R&B/jazz rooted feel.
Quite possibly - but you don't provide any concrete links to Purple's music, only vague references to the sound - which I would dispute - so this summary is purely an extension of your earlier dubious claim, and as such, your conclusion is clearly moot.
 Edited by Certif1ed - March 08 2010 at 03:39 |
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DavetheSlave
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 492 |
Posted: March 08 2010 at 03:55 |
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Certif1ed - I cannot stand Metallica's music - personally I feel that they have been and are over-rated. It's not a personal thing that I have against them - it's purely the music. On the other hand I love DT's music. Why would that be - surely, if the music has the same basis, I should abhor DT's music as well. I love the music of the Deep Purples, the Golden Earrings, the Uriah Heep's of the past. I love DT's music. That should say a lot all on its own. Personally I find a great deal of similarity between the Made in Japan album and DT's Live at Budokan album. Not in the tracks themselves but in the ambiance, the playing and the style. Deep Purple couldn't express themselves though as DT do in that that was the 70's and music has progressed since then. DT not prog metal in your view? That puzzles me but each to his own - I might as well say that Caravan aint Canterbury because that would be just as confusing to me.
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Petrovsk Mizinski
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: December 24 2007 Location: Ukraine Status: Offline Points: 25210 |
Posted: March 08 2010 at 05:13 |
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Yeah, but face it, not even Kirk Hammett can play Kirk Hammett solos live anyway He's even admitted he always uses the wah pedal for most of his live solos because he needs it to make him "sound good". I don't really think you can say much in defense in Hammett. Sure I don't like Petrucci's rendition of Hammett's solo (Hammett only plays one solo in that song, the first solo is Hetfield, which explains why it sounds good unlike the second solo), but the original solo was sh*t anyway IMO. Hammett was never a good soloist. Petrucci however actually has a good technical command of the instrument and actually knows how to do vibrato properly (as well as being able to bend in tune), rather than the dying cat, out of tune crap that is Hammett's vibrato. I'd rather listen to someone taking a sh*t than listen to Hammett playing live. At least hearing someone taking a dump has humor content and doesn't make me cringe  |
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Pekka
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 03 2006 Location: Espoo, Finland Status: Offline Points: 6442 |
Posted: March 08 2010 at 06:01 |
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progressive
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2005 Location: Finland Status: Offline Points: 366 |
Posted: March 08 2010 at 07:16 |
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DT made compact "math" metal, following Watchtower. There's nothing "math" in those 70's bands. I mean, DT is following Gentle Giant, not some fu*king smoky Deep Purple etc. Many of those are more blues and maybe jazz rock -based, and to many people it sounds more natural music. And I agree that DT doesn't _sound_ very artistic, but neither I like that "smoky" music. Of course metal is always linked to other metal, hard rock, etc, and DT is much heavy metal and hard rock. Also, even Metallica is better than DT in some ways "artistically". It's not so polished and also Metallica sounds more natural.
And I hate that discussion where you compare the players and the solos - reminds me of boring rock n roll, where solos are just separate from the music. Compared to all those other bands, in DT, there actually isn't solos in the same way. And I don't know anything about the techniques of playing - I know only the compositional technicality. Watchtower is technical in both ways (though, also, it lacks of some "macro-technicality" and "artistic" approach). DT isn't that much, but it has taken more pop elements in its music, like GG. However, to me, DT is much more prog than all those bands (except GG and Watchtower). It's just more complex and actually I see no complexity at all in those other bands in the same way. For example, compare Gentle Giant to them. And then to DT. Well, GG is a bit random choice here, but anyway, think of it. Some examples: Honor Thy Father 7:37-8:00, The Dance Of Eternity. If you know anything like that made by those classic bands mentioned in previous posts, let me know. they |
 | all scream: GENTLE GIANT, GENTLE GIANT, GENTLE GIANT, GENTLE GIANT lol lölEdited by progressive - March 08 2010 at 07:47 |
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angelmk
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: November 22 2006 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 1955 |
Posted: March 08 2010 at 08:32 |
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What is Heavy metal besides just another label? All that subgenres i mention are labels, true that , so is Heavy metal. As a matter of fact , i am pretty much familiar with all the metal genres i mentioned above. and i don't think dream theater play heavy metal in the same sense as Motorhead, Saxon, Manowar,Judas Priest just with few jazz improvisations as you said somewhere in you posts. DT is much more progressive then those bands mentioned. in fact those bands are heavy metal bands(except for Maiden) which differs from DT. and i didn't ask for timelines of progressiveness or any other timelines , it doesn't have much in common with the simple question i asked. The Sweet and DT in the same sentence, errr well they don't have much in common since the first is some glam/hard rock band, i haven't heard much of The Sweet music to be honest, but from what i have heard it doesn't sound much prog to me. DT cannot be considered Prog metal as opposed to what ? - Spastic ink? Dysrhythmia ? Zero hour? Blotted Science? Behold..The Arctopus? well for that reason we have 3 subgenres of metal, each different,with it's own special characteristics that distinguises one from another. Do you consider Estradasphere,Present, Deus ex machina, Magma etc. prog in the same sense as King Crimson are Prog? surely they are prog, but different subgenre, which don't make them less prog then King Crimson, the same as Dream Theater are prog as Spastic Ink,Zero Hour and the likes are prog. We cannot say that way that Spastic Inc. is closer to prog metal then BTBAM, since BTBAM are example of band that progressed in sound in every release.Since their first two albums are deathcore with some prog touch, they release Alaska and touching the realms of prog,but still not to close. and then they release Colours, definite prog album,a masterpiece of Prog. comparisons are endless.. since Metallica has released fair amount of thrash metal albums, i won't put them in the same sentence with DT. Metallica maybe is prog related thrash/heavy metal band, but not PROG METAL. And i also cannot deny they infuenced DT in some way though, but if we cut to the bone, every band is influenced by some other band, noone creates music out of nothing. the influences does not be necceccerily rock, but also classical,jazz and stuf like that..
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: March 08 2010 at 09:27 |
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One point to note here, which I have said before, is that prog metal really is a metal genre. It refers to music that metalheads consider to be progressive by metal standards. And the word progressive in relation to metal seems to be understood differently from the sense it is used in relation to prog rock. It causes a lot of confusion, admittedly, but prog metal has become too important to the prog scene in general not to be represented here. Anyway, the point is, prog metal as a term is often used to refer to bands with a lot of keyboard, virtuosic playing and extensive use of odd time signatures. How exactly is this different from technical metal has not been clear to me from day one and the two do converge far more than technical rock - say, Guthrie Govan's Erotic Cakes - does with prog rock. So, there's certainly a world of difference between the approach of the classic prog bands and say DT.
angelmk: I can definitely hear prog in Magma and Present, and in the same sense as King Crimson. Yeah, they don't sound the same at all. Which is the point, prog rock does not sound like anything, it is the underlying approach of the composers that's important. |
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Alberto Muņoz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 26 2006 Location: Mexico Status: Offline Points: 3577 |
Posted: March 08 2010 at 09:40 |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: March 08 2010 at 09:43 |
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Thanks, Pekka - you said it for me.
I am not talking about preferences for a band, or liking a particular band, but the "progressiveness", which is always a slippery label - but I've explored it in some depth in numerous places. Most recently in my Prog vs Progressive blog, of course.
If it puzzles you, why not ask questions so you understand?
Why ARE DT Prog Metal in your view?
I am not talking about how technically proficient anyone is - that is entirely beside the point.
It's best to take anything Metallica admit to with a huge pinch of salt. They are the biggest and most influential heavy metal band on the planet, after all, and can say what they like faster than you can say "Spinal Tap".
"Math" rock is where they use asymmetrical time signatures, in a nutshell - am I right?
If so, it was in existence long before Watchtower!
Besides, Watchtower followed Metallica...
Not convinced by this at all - do you have some empirical evidence?
I don't know DT's entire back catalogue (or even GG's), but I don't hear GG's freestyle classical/jazz/folk/rock complexities in DT anywhere.
Entirely my opinion, but I do tend to agree with this.
I don't know those songs - I'll take a listen.
The point is not that the music sounds like the Classic bands or not, but whether or not it's "progressive" and worthy of some kind of legendary status.
Must admit, the rest of this argument seems a bit unclear - like you're saying there's a direct GG comparison, but not really.
Could you clarify?
TE=angelmk] What is Heavy metal besides just another label? All that subgenres i mention are labels, true that , so is Heavy metal. [/quote]
Yes, you could follow the argument to it's ultimate conclusion like that and say it's all just music, and it needs no labels.
But people make them up nonetheless, and there are probably hundreds of them, if not thousands.
Heavy Metal is an old "label", and not only that, it is a "super"-label in that there are many, many "sub-genres" of it, and it is distinct enough from Rock that it's not too hard for anyone to tell the difference.
Maiden not a heavy metal band? Why? How?
Go back and understand what I wrote before replying
OK, slow down - what point are you making here?
I cannot even work out what the question is supposed to be!
Is there a question here?
Again, it's not clear what you're trying to say.
I say Metallica are Prog Metal, and I've reasoned it all out in my reviews and many, many posts on the subject in the past.
Please supply counter-reasoning, not bald statements as if you hold the only truth there is!
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angelmk
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: November 22 2006 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 1955 |
Posted: March 08 2010 at 11:31 |
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^^ Man, i won't rephrase my statements, i am just too tired and too lazy to do it
i will clear myself just in one point, Maiden are heavy metal band , yeah, but more prog then other heavy metal bands you mentioned in the first post. Nevermind, just enjoy the music as you said
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progressive
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2005 Location: Finland Status: Offline Points: 366 |
Posted: March 08 2010 at 12:35 |
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"I don't hear GG's freestyle classical/jazz/folk/rock complexities in DT anywhere"
classical/jazz/folk/rock is not prog classic rock is not prog jazz-rock is not prog even classical + jazz + folk + rock isn't prog, i mean, not always. I didn't mean math rock by saying "math" metal, and I didn't mean Meshuggah-style. I meant... Gentle Giant by "math". Hitler. If I knew more about musical theory, I could maybe explain it. Of course DT has classic jazz-oriented rock, heavy metal, pop hard rock etc in it, but for example that clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gKOjTa8cG8 didn't sound like DT, that sounded classic jazz-oriented rock, or whatever you call it. DT has much more "pop" and "metal" than "classic rock" in it. But of course there's much influences (lol, like I said). However, none of those describes DT's music well. Neither does classic prog, mostly. So, it's just progressive, and not always progressive. (+ there's many ways to be progressive, but i don't think that some sound experimentation, concepts etc makes music progressive, I think it's only the "complexity"). And I see much similarities with GG in the complexity of DT, also, there's some kind of compact pop approach in both. Though DT has more basic rock occasions in their music and mostly I don't like it. And I mean the non-progressive parts, like basic 4/4 drum beat... And talking about pop, for example DT's About to Crash (Reprise) is one of the best prog songs I've heard, though it's also very much pop, I think, and though it is short and stops suddenly (but not when you listen to the album): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaJpgVBxKi8 Edited by progressive - March 08 2010 at 12:48 |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: March 09 2010 at 02:03 |
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Some really good points here.
I have to re-iterate that heavy metal (and heavy rock to a lesser extent) is intrinsically progressive.
Let's not get black and white here - nothing is black and white when it comes to music, and you can nit-pick about other more scientific disciplines too - quantum mechanics, for example.
Why did I provide a timeline earlier?
To illustrate the fact that Heavy metal is intrinsically progressive - but I'd guess you need to know about the key bands in the evolution in order to understand how we got to Dream Theater gradually, and why their music isn't so different to what went before.
I started with Spooky Tooth - an almost ideal example.
They started as what passes for heavy rock in the early 1960s as the VIPs, then, after being the band who gave Jimi Hendrix his debut (on stage during a gig, can you believe!).
They changed their name and style a couple of times before releasing "Spooky Two" - on the face of it, an R&B album like many others of the time, with particular strong similarities to the Small Faces - but one which influenced Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin and Judas Priest.
Their debut even influenced more esoteric borderline Metal/Prog Related bands such as Blue Oyster Cult.
Spooky Tooth went on to record a very progressive album called "Ceremony" (I said "progressive", which is not necessarily the same as "good").
I then mentioned Sabbath -> The Sweet - Judas Priest.
These 3 bands, all from Birmingham in the UK, are probably the most influential on the development of heavy metal, and all progressed - Sabbath to a much lesser extent. There are others too, from this area, such as Slade, and a whole load of others I can't be bothered to mention. This isn't a laundry list!
Sabbath you know about.
The Sweet started out as a pop band who could hardly play their instruments let alone write a song - they had all their songs written for them, until they got fed up of the constant criticism -
This is a key component of why metal tends to be so progressive as a genre - it frequently gets criticised as being somehow less than other genres of popular music, so it seems to feel this constant need to reinvent itself and prove itself worthy.
Back to The Sweet's story; Every album they released from 1974 onwards became more and more progressive in nature as the band mastered both their instruments and the whole songwriting thing. "Fanny Adams" is notable because of the blisteringly fast riff that kicks it off, and many, many moments which are so obviously the basis of later Judas Priest riffs - and we all know how influential Priest are.
The Sweet remained influential long into the NWoHM - Raven covered "Action" and "Hellraiser", and just about everybody covered "Ballroom Blitz" - but they wrote far more intricate (and dare I say "better"!) songs than these.
Early Priest, however, sounds like a kind of watered-down Prog - long, meandering songs deeply reminiscent of Black Sabbath, yet with this clear epic ambition. I really like Priest's early output - but it has to be said, it's not the most technically proficient music you'll ever hear.
It was, of course, produced by Rodger Bain, who was Black Sabbath's producer - and the producer can often have this effect. For example, John Leckie, who produced early Radiohead albums went on to produce Muse - and the comparisons are often drawn, despite the music being quite radically different.
As Priest's style evolved (a much better word than "progressed"), it went through at least 3 significant changes;
1) From the long, epic style to a tighter hard rock with epic leanings style - and The Sweet's style from "Fanny Adams" (and "Desolation Boulevard", and "Off The Record" is all over their music.
2) The "stripped-down" approach on late 1970s-early 1980s output, again, with strong roots in the Sweet.
3) The more heads-down heavy metal style from the 1980s to the early 1990s.
4) The Painkiller style, when Priest finally caught up with thrash metal, which had overtaken them. I use "Thrash Metal" to cover a multitude of so-called genres that used the underlying style.
Priest in turn inspired Maiden and a host of other NWoBHM bands, all of whom inspired Metallica - who drew all the various styles of metal (and quite a lot of punk) together to form a new style of heavy metal, which caught on like wildfire.
It's easy to pick bands who came up with certain bits and pieces of the jigsaw, but Metallica put it all together and everyone else followed. The more you listen to the various NWoBHM bands - especially the ones I mentioned, the more you can hear exactly where Metallica stole their ideas.
Dream Theater simply followed on from Metallica, adding a few ideas of their own - it's an evolutionary process.
And let me reiterate; it's not black and white, so don't make it so.
Dream Theater were obviously inspired by more bands than Metallica, and have gone on to be inspired by even more bands - I have simply presented a logical timeline where key identifiable elements are present in the music, and this illustrates the evolutionary nature (or "progressive" on a minor scale if you prefer) of heavy metal.
And this is why Dream Theater are a Heavy Metal band - the earlier comparison with Deep Purple is actually quite a good one, since Deep Purple are to Classic Prog what Dream Theater are to the definition(s) of Prog Metal.
I don't know what all these modern labels mean - I stick with the old ones that actually describe the music rather than nonsensical ones that only mean something to fans and genre journalists.
But I do believe that Prog Metal in the true sense exists, if mainly in embryonic form - but I haven't heard everything there is, so I could have missed loads. For example, I'm only now catching up with Between The Buried and Me's back catalogue - and they are very, very close on first hearing. Edited by Certif1ed - March 09 2010 at 02:07 |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: March 09 2010 at 02:19 |
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That's as maybe - but Gentle Giant are an established Prog Band - they are one of the bands that define what Prog is.
I wasn't talking about paritcular combinations making Prog - there is no specific recipe (which is a big chunk of the point), rather, as the statement makes clear, "I don't hear GG's freestyle classical/jazz/folk/rock complexities in DT anywhere".
In other words, I used those terms to describe the indescribable maelstrom that is Gentle Giant's music to contrast with the entirely describable music of Dream Theater.
I'm Hitler for not understanding, and asking questions am I?
I'm not sure Hitler asked many questions - I rather think he thought he had all the answers.
I don't know what "Math Rock" is - I don't recognise it as a term in musical theory, as it's just journalistic nonsense as far as I can see. I simply looked it up in Wikipedia - and if there's a fundamental difference between math rock and math metal other than the "rock" and "metal" bits, then that doesn't make any sense to me.
You don't need to be able to explain stuff in terms of musical theory - simple empirical examples will do the job quite simply.
I will check out the examples you've given - and I won't expect Gentle Giant Edited by Certif1ed - March 09 2010 at 02:22 |
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DavetheSlave
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 492 |
Posted: March 09 2010 at 04:28 |
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Certified - I agree in the main to the points you made relating to metal. Very interesting that you should bring the Sweet into it. I hadn't thought about them but on thinking about it you are probably very right that they have prog metal influence. Food for thought eh.
I'm of the opinion that most metal is progressive in nature - other than popularised "metal by demand" bands.
As for "Progressives" thinking relating to Gentle Giant being an influence of Dream Theater - NO. They may have been a vague influence but more than that I don't get. I may as well say that Weather Report infuenced Judas Priest.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: March 09 2010 at 09:57 |
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Fantastic phrase. This really is a good way of putting it. One I can agree with 100%.
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progressive
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2005 Location: Finland Status: Offline Points: 366 |
Posted: March 09 2010 at 10:34 |
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If you don't even know what is math rock, please go away.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: March 09 2010 at 10:52 |
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progressive
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2005 Location: Finland Status: Offline Points: 366 |
Posted: March 09 2010 at 11:03 |
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Sorry. Not to you
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: March 09 2010 at 11:34 |
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Even worse because I'm quite sure he shouldn't go away just because he doesn't, according to you, know what "math rock" is. It's kind of difficult these days to be able to keep track of all the new rocks...maybe soon there will be a "Physics rock", "Chemistry Rock" or something like... When in the end they all are very similar with just minimal differences in their emphasis on some of the elements of rock music...
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DT... already a prog legend?
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DavetheSlave wrote:
i will clear myself just in one point, Maiden are heavy metal band , yeah, but more prog then other heavy metal bands you mentioned in the first post. Nevermind, just enjoy the music as you said