Dream Theater - Prog or not?

Still funny to see that the votes for option 1 were much more dominant when no pressure was applied in the following discussion. Have been tracking this poll closely for obvious reasons.

And as far as pressure go - I really do think that the people active on this site are adult and self-assured enough to not bend to any form of pressure. I believe that people will stand for what they mean.

I don't know how this is in the rest of the world, but my general experience is that pressure to do something in one specific manner most often will lead to the opposite result, due to the rebellious nature so much a part of most people's personalities.

^  Yeah, basically.  I've all but outgrown their music (in my ears), but I can't really stand for ignorance on the subject.  

Windhawk wrote: Still funny to see that the votes for option 1 were much more dominant when no pressure was applied in the following discussion. Have been tracking this poll closely for obvious reasons. And as far as pressure go - I really do think that the people active on this site are adult and self-assured enough to not bend to any form of pressure. I believe that people will stand for what they mean. I don't know how this is in the rest of the world, but my general experience is that pressure to do something in one specific manner most often will lead to the opposite result, due to the rebellious nature so much a part of most people's personalities.

JLocke wrote: ^ People have the same issue with Meshuggah, I've noticed. I've seen reviews where people make the claim that the riffs never change the whole song. Ridiculous. The changes are sometimes so subtle,a careless listener may miss it, but even besides those times, the riffs progress and change drastically quite often in this type of music. Just because something is heavy doesn't mean it isn't developed or complex.

That is strange indeed. Meshuggah would strike me as one of those rare Metal band that are truely Prog as well. Other examples would be early Psychotic Waltz, Voivod or a recent band like Intronaut.

Heaviness is of course not the issue, but I would say that the piano for example, invites a lot more to progressive rock songwriting then a heavily distorted guitar does.
The example above about Octavarium argues that a section with flute offers some thematic development. My point exactly.

Dean wrote: Windhawk wrote: Still funny to see that the votes for option 1 were much more dominant when no pressure was applied in the following discussion. Have been tracking this poll closely for obvious reasons. And as far as pressure go - I really do think that the people active on this site are adult and self-assured enough to not bend to any form of pressure. I believe that people will stand for what they mean. I don't know how this is in the rest of the world, but my general experience is that pressure to do something in one specific manner most often will lead to the opposite result, due to the rebellious nature so much a part of most people's personalities.  I think it's just that anyone who had a strong opinion voted early.

1. Fanboys who are wandering around to seee if they find soomething of their reason to live.
2. Fans and detractors come almost simultaneously.
3. People who don't have a special interest in loving or hating the band but has an opinoion.
4. Haters, who almost always keep silent but always vote against who they hate.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 20 2010 at 08:16

Dean wrote: I don't think it is possible to change anyone's opinion by posting on the internet - (even this minor OT one between you and I ), you can only modify it slightly but not enough to flipover a core belief. It is different when an objective 'fact' is being debated, but not a subjective opinion such as this.

Indeed.

At the very best, debates - whether on screen or on paper - can start a process that eventually will end up with a change of opinion. At a later stage.

A certain Hendrix revelation comes to mind in that particular context ;-)

As for the topic of this poll, I'll always wonder how much goes down to personal taste in cases like these.

This debate does remind me quite a lot of others I witnessed a couple of decades ago - then it was Hawkwind's progressive credentials which were the subject of snide remarks and ridicule - basically described as simplistic blues based hard rock by certain proggers at the time, who complained loudly about the lack of sophistication and the notion that cliched spacey keyboards were enough to make a band "prog".

I's curious about how many who agree to that notion these days.

topofsm wrote: I don't get why people are saying DT are not prog because of their reliance on riffs. Are they kidding? "Dancing with the Moonlit Knight", "Close to the Edge", "Starless", "Echoes"? These are prog landmarks and they all have repeated riffs. Not to mention DT does develop theirs. Just listen to the Octavarium track. Despite whether you think it's good or not the main theme (flute at the beginning) is surprisingly not repeated much in every instance of its usage, and is developed several times along with other themes. And this is not just one instance.

Exactly. Honestly, I don't get this thing about riffs. It's rock music people, it has riffs. I insist, the intro of Siberian Khatru has one of the best riffs in progressive music history. Oh, wait, that's not progressiveat all...

Bonnek wrote: I can't comment on Octovarium, I don't own all DT albums.

No disrespect but you sound a bit too definitive in your statements for someone who doesn't know all DT did. Let it be clear, I don't care if DT are considered prog, metal or dance, I'd still listen to them. And to Kylie Minogue. But to me, it still seems like you guys are trying too hard to prove something that has little to no sense at all. This is modern music, it obviously works a bit differently from how it did back in the 70s but the intent, that's the same. What's the difference if the progression is made through riffs (something progressive bands already did in the 70s by the way, that's rock for you) or via themes or arias? How can someone openly say Octavarium is not progressive? Or The count of Tuscany, with the last 7-8 minutes that are so Pink-Floydy they'd fool Roger Waters himself?

Bonnek wrote: It's not just the "riffs verses theme" development, there's also the use of keyboards, complex time signatures, non-verse-chorus song structures that make something Prog from a formal perspective. Most of all that theme development is essential to call something "true prog rock" and it's something that Metal will always have trouble with because of it's riff-based structure. In some cases, as with Opeth, the riffs span multiple bars and (usually 4) and have almost become progressive by themselves! As to Marillion, that's easy, just listen again to the Script For a Jester's Tear track, it has a clear thematic and scenic development.

I am sorry, you still don't sound really convincing. You listen again to, I don't know, Misplaced Childhood, Clutching at straws, Brave, Marbles and you will find plenty of songs based on riffs. Most of them. You might also want to listen to South side of the sky or Long distance runaround, if Marillion are too neo-prog to be considered truly "progressive", and you tell me if there is no extensive use of riffs in these two. Lastly, you find me some diffrerences between, I don't know, XYZ or Red Barchetta and any DT song and I'll buy you a beer. What the hell, I'll buy you a slab.

Raff wrote: I believe it was the Prog-metal experts themselves (The T, aka Teo, first of all) who pointed out that Prog-Metal and Prog-Rock are different.

Ok, this is a difference I can accept, even if prog rock > prog metal. But to say that DT are a "metal band with progressive tendencies"...this has no sense even logically, unless we want to say that prog metal doesn't exist at all. DT, and all the myriads of bands who sound like them, ARE what prog metal IS right now. If the canons you guys are using to define what progressive is don't see them fit in the category, then maybe these canons need to be rethought. As they say, it's not their problem, it's yours

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: jampa17 wrote: Well Ivan, the answer 2 to 5 has no even the half of the votes of the first one... I know we both do not believe too much in democracy (Who said 50+1 is always right and the rest is wrong?) but is evident that the majority of the active members are voting for the one with more logic... DT is both prog and prog metal... so... no matter if 3 of every 10 members think they are not... accept it Ivan... at least in this poll... you are not with the winners...   From the start I said a high percentage of members disagree with the Prog status opf DT and 36% is a huge percentage.   And remember, most of non DT fans will never visit a thread of them,   Iván

I voted I'm unsure about their progressive credentials in the end since though I believe they compose "Prog" (noun) music, I don't know how progressive (adjective) the band's music/ approach really is.

I think it can be noted Dream Theater is not exactly avant garde. Let's not kid ourselves folks, the aim of the DT game is not to write the most out there, crazy sh*t ever.
I hear a lot of complain about this aspect of their sound, that they aren't out there enough, not full blown intense.
But again, they never set out to be, and arguably neither did many of those symphonic prog bands that Ivan will argue are far more prog than DT.
So really, are they so prog if they are just following the same formula again and again? Some would say many symph prog or pysch prog would not qualify for prog rock.
Personally I don't listen to DT much anymore as my taste has moved onto my groove oriented metal bands that are much more riff based (Gojira, Meshuggah, Periphery, Chimaira, 1980 etc) but Images and Words and Awake are undeniably complex records in the metal realm. Hell SFAM contains enough non metal rock parts that I consider it to be prog rock as well (although I don't find SFAM to be a particularly great album anymore musically)
Personally I don't see a lot of prog in their recent albums. They sound more like random mish-mashes of riffs that don't fit coherently to me which makes me question their recent progressive qualities, which is why I stick to Awake being my favorite of theirs (and indeed, one of the best of the prog metal genre) because it sounds coherent to me