Prog vs Progressive - Is there such a thing?

Certif1ed wrote: 1. That the music itself contains progressions, the word here being used to mean passages of music that segue into another, standing in contrast to simple constructions such as a verse/chorus based song.

This is the definition of "progressive" I generally use, or the record I don't distinguish between prog and progressive and it does overlap with some genres that are similar but distinctive. Psychedelic rock, for instance, can be progressive (Pink Floyd, Amon Düül II) or not (13th Floor Elevators, Blue Cheer).

Item 1 is not fantastic either, since many progressive compositions are indeed based around the old song structure, so focus here tends to shift to extended instrumentals, generally ignoring the fact that any band worth their salt enjoys a good jam session, and extended instrumentals can be very simple affairs, often comprising 3, 2 or even a single chord - so we're almost back where we started!

I get the impression that it's supposed to be "progressive" relative to normal rock music, so things like the extended instrumentals or jams should be longer or at least more deliberate and planned than in other rock genres. Of course, this is based again on relations and generalizations about how much exactly makes something progressive but pretty much any kind of categorization system is based on generalizations that are bound to not always be correct.

^ I echo Dean's first point here. How can there be a set of rules applying to an approach which aims to break them? I don't feel you can have preconceived ideas about how progressive music should sound, because that defeats the objective of pushing boundaries and challenging convention.

I'm still unsure as to what qualifies to be progressive, but I think a good basic rule of thumb is assessing whether the music in question defies the traditional approach of writing rock songs, be it texturally, conceptually, in terms of harmony, melody, layering or structural form. There are so many different ways of being original - the choice of guitar tone or the use of interesting vocal phrasing can be enough to be distinct, but being progressive seems to take it further, and strip away from the confines of standard rock music. Mixing up the bigger picture, in other words.

No disrespect to mainstream rock, of course. 

I think your question is about Progressive music as a style vs. progressive music as a forward moving art form.  Its the same discussion that architects have about Modernism, which really hasn't been modern for 30 years!
Yes, Prog has certain qualities that one can list: orchestration, complex time signitures, keyboards, classical inspiration, layering of themes, etc. . Recent progressive music may or may not have the same characteristics.
Most people at this website seem to be interested in both, and probably are not satisfied with progressive music simply because it may be breaking new ground. Its interesting to me when a band with a progressive sound such as SGM is making references, intentionally or accidentally, to its Progressive ancestors ( King Crimson comes to mind) without sounding retro or derivative.  Stevo

brilliant diagram, and I like how Zappa and Can are in the '?' section

Interesting points there. And how difficult it is to attempt to formulate rules which define progressive music by being broken, rather than kept! I probably have little new to contribute on these grounds, but in my opinion, I think that since we are dealing with a way of thinking that blurs all stylistic distinctions, perhaps the rules that have the potential to be and already have been broken are limitless in number, because there are so many aspects of the rock idiom that are generic.

Taking that a little further, perhaps all it boils down to approaching composition in numerous ways that significantly differ from musical trends - and there are many of these trends. (Standard chord voicings,  popular cadences, diatonic/pentatonic melody lines, basic song structure etc.) It's all been broken before, to a certain extent, so perhaps all that's left to do is to make these changes all the more extreme, or try and tackle a lot of different changes at once. To be progressive in this day and age is pretty difficult, so your best bet is probably to tear any trace of convention to shreds.

Your comments on Modern Prog may be true, but when you term it as such, I assume you don't encompass modern progressive music?

And as for progressive mainstream rock, Radiohead and Muse are two perfect examples. I don't dispute it.




 

Fieldofsorrow wrote: Interesting points there. And how difficult it is to attempt to formulate rules which define progressive music by being broken, rather than kept!

Fieldofsorrow wrote: So, there are various degrees of progressiveness, as you say. But where does this sliding scale begin?

Thinking about where it "begins", It seems inescapable that "progressive" is a sliding scale that doesn't really begin.

Edited by Certif1ed - February 11 2010 at 09:02

I can't really speak for The Flower Kings, but in the case of Porcupine Tree, I do understand to a certain extent as to why they are here. Progressive music has often been associated with blurring the boundaries between different genres, and they have been able to merge trancy rock, pop hooks and crunchier metal sections in a striking and interesting way. Their albums have proven to be ambitious compositionally, with more dynamic and textural awareness than many of their contemporaries, plus a certain level of musical competence that far excels the standard of generic rock. I think it's accumalative, really.

And I picked names out of a hat really, when discussing the idea of creating a prog idiom. Admittedly Pink Floyd is a much more common influence, and I would say Yes has had some impact too. My point really was that this more epic style of writing with instrumental interludes, modal melody and more involved harmonies were first adopted as a way to push the boundaries, and yet now have become attributes which can identify a band as 'prog'. In this sense, you can play in a classic prog vein, surely? The licks might not sound the same, but I could listen to Spock's Beard or Yes thirsting after the same thing. If bands play in odd time or modulate into different keys, are these not common attributes?

Continuing on from that, if playing in a way that was original thirty years ago fails to be progressive anymore, then calling it modern Prog actually sums it up well, because it gives an indication of the style of music. A KC clone band, for instance, might employ orchestral arrangements and use the same quirky soundscapes in a similar way to its influence, and we could just call it modern Prog and be done with it. Now, let's suppose that a band does this, but transforms it into reggae music - I'd call that progressive. It puts old ideas into a new context, and has just broken a very significant boundary. A stupid example I know, but I feel that what many of these younger groups are doing is taking a style of playing (which was originally very innovative by its own merits) and adapting it to fit a different mould - perhaps within a darker and more aggresive form.

Now I'm aware that the land of Opeth and Pain of Salvation and so forth is one of which you remain highly sceptical. But to me, what makes them progressive is the fact that they have done just what I have described in a heavier setting. Plus, in terms of sophistication, you may feel that the songwriting has been dummed down, but I personally hear a lot more coherence and better coordination in the more modern compositions, technology and production aside.

Are you sure modern Prog should be at the very least progressive? If we can happily refer to them as seperate entities, then perhaps one needn't be the subset of another.

Oh, and I plan to check out Ekseption sometime - I got a recommendation concerning them recently.

Fieldofsorrow wrote: I'm still unsure as to what qualifies to be progressive, but I think a good basic rule of thumb is assessing whether the music in question defies the traditional approach of writing rock songs, be it texturally, conceptually, in terms of harmony, melody, layering or structural form. There are so many different ways of being original - the choice of guitar tone or the use of interesting vocal phrasing can be enough to be distinct, but being progressive seems to take it further, and strip away from the confines of standard rock music. Mixing up the bigger picture, in other words.

This. I was watching Star Wars Episode V, after watching the new movies... and although i never noticed before, now I can see the difference: the attention to detail in plot and style in the older movies is much better than the newer ones... I think this is the same thing in music: it's lots of little things that make music - progressive or not - great.


Pretty much everyone on this website knows exactly what 'prog' and 'progressive is... when they hear it. How do we know? I'm still not sure... I would still like to stress the difference between 'prog' and 'progressive'... even if i can't say what it is.