The Atheist - Agnostic - Non religious thread

Henry Plainview wrote: KoS wrote: http://www.intelligencesquared.com/iq2-video/2009/catholic-church Stephen Fry and Christopher Hitchens vs The Catholic Church. An unfair fight, methinks. "its sinister temerity to preach that there is no salvation outside of the Church"? Why is that people who hate the Church usually don't understand what it actually says? I never understood why it's so controversial for a religion to say that it's right.

Good point.

Salvation implies there is something to be saved from...if the problem isn't clearly identified, how is one to know what the solution is?

^ on the contrary. The concept of all the Judeo-Christian/Abrahamic religions is that you only go to heaven if you practice the religion. I remember from my childhood that I once asked my grand parents (who were Catholics) if people go to heaven who lead a good life (benevolent, peaceful, altruistic) etc. but don't believe in God, and they clearly denied it. And they weren't fanatical Christians, just your typical German mainstream Catholics.

But it's surely interesting to know that in your opinion I could go to heaven while completely denying the existence of God (or heaven).

Now, we just need to break down the obviously subjective idea of good and bad, then we'll have ourselves a right philosophical conversation.

As a fun thought, I no longer believe in free will. My recent studies of psychology and sociology have led me to believe in something akin to determinism.

I don't know, why do we? Is it fear?

And, I feel as though your view on determinism is a bit different from mine. I see everything as, not out of our control and in the hands of some mysterious power, but at the hands of every single facet of current reality placed together, including you.

I suppose I prefer the term "circumstantialism" It may seem as if we control our lives, but do we control the sun rising or falling? Do we control directly what we think about? Do we control our genetics or birth statistics? Do we control who our parents are, or what planet we're born on? Do we choose anything out of nothingness?

Does a drunkard control his body's ability to handle alcohol directly? If his thoughts are impaired by alcohol, can he be truly to blame for causing an accident? The nay-sayers will tout his responsibility in taking that "first drink", but everything think or feel is subjective, and not of our own volition. Why, even thoughts are measurable and subject to outside forces.

If we are so in control of our lives, why then can someone become a completely different person after having a damaged brain?

I see the "choice" ideal as something nigh impossible to break in most individuals, but I see the universe as an infinite, infinitely complex web of circumstantial pushes and pulls exerting onto each other indefinitely.

Also, I see choice as merely an idea, and ideas are only as real as that. They only indirectly affect reality by our minds being affected by them. But, again, our existence is a sum of all universal parts. Psychological and scientific studies conclude that our personalities are quite well formulated before birth, and how we react to outside stimuli is subjective to our personal mirrors of perception and experience.

We are products of our universal environment. Our birth, life experiences, genetic make-up, heritage, world, natural environment, personality, and stresses. Not being in control of your life doesn't make you subjectively feel any more or less.

Returning to choice, it is easy to say that everyone has a choice, but do we, really? If a choice is never chosen, does it even exist? Also, what we "choose" is based upon what I see as a sort of battle between our urge to do something, and our urge to not do something.

An alcoholic who gets behind the wheel of a car does so because his urge to do so overwhelmed his urge to not do so. And these urges truly are based on personality, life experiences, thoughts, memories, genetic make-up, etc. And so is he truly in control?

Ok, I've spouted for long enough, I suppose.

No, Catholics do not believe faith is more important than works. St Paul said that faith without works is dead. Protestants are more iffy on that, but I think it would be unfair to say they all believe that, since even if theologically they may say that one's works are irrelevant to faith, in practice they would admit that you can't really have faith without also doing good works.

Hahaha, please reply to it when you aren't as tired. I hate it when my views aren't challenged. I have come across most of the defenses:

-"But everyone CHOOSES!!! I choose my car, my wife, my dog, my favorite foods, my etc..."

Well, that's about it. Talking philosophically to McDonald's employees isn't the most productive of tasks, methinks.

Henry Plainview wrote: No, Catholics do not believe faith is more important than works. St Paul said that faith without works is dead. Protestants are more iffy on that, but I think it would be unfair to say they all believe that, since even if theologically they may say that one's works are irrelevant to faith, in practice they would admit that you can't really have faith without also doing good works. I am way to tired to respond to that now Alitare.

Merely doing good deeds is not good enough ... I think we can agree on that. "Good deeds" is a fuzzy subject anyway ... not so long ago that also included killing non-believers. To quote a Black Adder episode:

"Love thy neighbour! Unless he's Turkish in which case: Kill the b*****d!"

(I know that it's a comedy, and I'm actually making a joke here ... but with a grain of truth)


Edited by Mr ProgFreak - December 03 2009 at 01:50

Alitare wrote: Now, we just need to break down the obviously subjective idea of good and bad, then we'll have ourselves a right philosophical conversation. As a fun thought, I no longer believe in free will. My recent studies of psychology and sociology have led me to believe in something akin to determinism.

One of my favorite subjects.

I am wholeheartedly convinced that we have freewill because of determinism. 

I made up (or heard- I forget which) a joke about it to express the idea:

"How does the determinist cross the road?"
Very carefully.
"How does the indeterminist cross the road?"
Who knows?

Mr ProgFreak wrote:   The concept of all Christian religions is exactly that it is more important to believe in their God than to actually be a good person. My own opinion is actually quite the opposite: It doesn't matter at all whether you believe in a God, the *only* important thing is that you are a good person.

 

I have a fleeting interest in nominative determinism (and reverse nominative determinism for people whose family names are slightly inappropriate to their chosen profession) and think that it could shed light on a whole raft of differing philosophical determinisms. Other than that it's a bit like seeing shapes in the clouds that look like animals.

Edited by Dean - December 03 2009 at 09:29