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Topic ClosedMetallica ?
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Poll Question: how do you fel about Metallica being added ?
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Points: 10669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2009 at 14:50
The only album I've heard in recent years that sounds like Progressive Rock (early 70s Yes, Crimson etc) and is at the same time progressive is Shining's Grindstone.

This has been kicked around on this site a million times, but after the mid-70s it is really hard for a band to play Progressive Rock (what many on this site call 'prog') and still be progressive.

I think most of the time we have to think in terms of both (Progressive Rock and progressive rock) and try to abstractly juggle the two while deciding if a band fits PA. I think a lot of us have a feel for where those two merge (and don't merge), but it is probably hard to get on paper.
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2009 at 14:55
^^ I know that you don't think that I'm much of an expert ... in the past I used to write angry responses to such clandestine attacks, but I won't bother anymore.Wink

Well, have it your way ... the only valid Prog Metal bands are Metallica and Spastik Inc, and that's that.LOL

I'm kind of surprised though that you would have something positive to say about Spock's Beard ... since they've always been heavily influenced by Genesis and Gentle Giant. It's also not very consistent with your theory from a couple of posts ago, where you said that typical fans of 70s prog would not enjoy modern prog because it's lacking the element of surprise and ingenuity ... Spock's Beard are typically one of the bands those old timers can't stand at all.


Edited by Mr ProgFreak - July 09 2009 at 01:13
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2009 at 21:25
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

 It's also not very consistent with your theory from a couple of posts ago, where you said that typical fans of 70s prog would not enjoy modern prog because it's lacking the element of surprise and ingenuity ... Spock's Beard are typically one of the bands those old timers can't stand at all.

I am not an old timer but since I do like the old prog more, I can safely say that based on the one album of theirs, I heard, I did not like them at all and after two albums, my impression of TFK isn't much better. I'd rather listen to stuff like Dream Theater even if it doesn't really follow the template of the old masters.  AND...you are not spelling it out in as many words, but aren't you basically saying that prog metal is prog elements pasted on metal?  Nothing wrong with that, that's what at least I have always understood prog metal to be. I don't like much prog metal but I don't really have any problems with the word prog prefixed to it because I can see that the word prog is used here in an entirely different context from the way it was in relation to 70s prog.  It might seem bizarre that both kinds of music are lumped under the same umbrella term but then I guess you can also conceivably call The Who and Europe both rock bands and they don't sound a whole lot like each other, not where I am hearing anyway.  The problem is really with both groups - fans of the old prog and fans of prog metal - expecting one to emulate the approach of the other.  There's no need.  And yes, it means the genre is not very scientifically defined but that seems to be the case with a lot of rock-based genres.  The new (or is it nu) breed of metalheads can't see eye to eye with each other on what is metal, for instance and neither is able to satisfactorily define what metal really is.
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Points: 3196 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2009 at 21:31
Let me quote Mike Portnoy of Dream Theater:
 
"Metallica are the world's first true progressive metal band. People just don't know it yet."
 
I'm not a big fan of them, but they definately belong on this site. They have DEFINATELY influenced prog metal.
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Points: 65306 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2009 at 21:48
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:


I am not an old timer but since I do like the old prog more, I can safely say that based on the one album of theirs, I heard, I did not like them at all and after two albums, my impression of TFK isn't much better. I'd rather listen to stuff like Dream Theater even if it doesn't really follow the template of the old masters.  AND...you are not spelling it out in as many words, but aren't you basically saying that prog metal is prog elements pasted on metal?  Nothing wrong with that, that's what at least I have always understood prog metal to be. I don't like much prog metal but I don't really have any problems with the word prog prefixed to it because I can see that the word prog is used here in an entirely different context from the way it was in relation to 70s prog.  It might seem bizarre that both kinds of music are lumped under the same umbrella term but then I guess you can also conceivably call The Who and Europe both rock bands and they don't sound a whole lot like each other, not where I am hearing anyway.  The problem is really with both groups - fans of the old prog and fans of prog metal - expecting one to emulate the approach of the other.  There's no need.  And yes, it means the genre is not very scientifically defined but that seems to be the case with a lot of rock-based genres.  The new (or is it nu) breed of metalheads can't see eye to eye with each other on what is metal, for instance and neither is able to satisfactorily define what metal really is.


good post, I would say however that progressive metal, at least as it was emerging in the San Francisco scene, was not prog elements pasted on metal - or a fusion of the two - as much as an urge to progress heavy metal itself.  The similarities between prog rock and prog metal lie in this creative urge, and less between a musical lineage between the two [though as Certified correctly points out metal was in many ways a product of the progression of rock].. the British and European contributions to the progressing of metal - Priest, Scorpions, Maiden, Ozzy's first two, Angel Witch, etc. - may be more influenced by the prog artists but that is not necessarily clear either, as we see what appears to be independent progression in the material of, say, Uli Roth or Michael Schenker stemming from their own classical backgrounds rather than influence from ELP or Jethro Tull.  If anything we hear influence in Schenker's playing from fellow rocker Tony Iommi more than any prog bands.





Edited by Atavachron - July 08 2009 at 21:51
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2009 at 23:13
I just come from a 3-day trip and I find this fantastic change in developments on this thread... I have a lot to read tomorrow...Wacko I'm so dead and tired right now... Sleepy
 
 
Just a word: I think that the problem regarding Metallica's addition has been solved, people have said what they thought but in the end we all understand nobody wanted to offend nobody. I don't have any problems with nobody. Whatever caused the short-lived problems, poor choice of words, overreaction, the need to voice an opinion, whatever, we're still here and I'm happy we were able to do that and come back to a point where a great real discussion is having place.
 
Now to sleep...
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2009 at 23:19
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

I just come from a 3-day trip and I find this fantastic change in developments on this thread... I have a lot to read tomorrow...Wacko I'm so dead and tired right now... Sleepy
 
 
Just a word: I think that the problem regarding Metallica's addition has been solved, people have said what they thought but in the end we all understand nobody wanted to offend nobody. I don't have any problems with nobody. Whatever caused the short-lived problems, poor choice of words, overreaction, the need to voice an opinion, whatever, we're still here and I'm happy we were able to do that and come back to a point where a great real discussion is having place.
 
Now to sleep...

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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2009 at 23:49
Just to show the collabs I really have put the Metallica thing behind me I shall write some reviews!

But don't expect any nice ones from the Black Album on Wink
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2009 at 02:28
^I'm not expecting any nice reviews by anybody of anything between the black album (didn't they nick that idea from Spinal Tap?) and Death Magnetic - but both of those are good albums, even if the former isn't proggy and the latter is only proggy in style.
 
The albums in between are pretty awful - but not as nasty as "Love Beach" by ELP Dead
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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2009 at 06:36
Love Beach ie pretty good .
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2009 at 06:54
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

^I'm not expecting any nice reviews by anybody of anything between the black album (didn't they nick that idea from Spinal Tap?) and Death Magnetic - but both of those are good albums, even if the former isn't proggy and the latter is only proggy in style.
 
The albums in between are pretty awful - but not as nasty as "Love Beach" by ELP Dead


Death Magnetic ... well, I would agree that it sounds a bit related to prog in terms of style, but that may be because DT ripped Metallica's style off (listen to Constant Motion). But in any case, I would never give this album more than 2 stars.Embarrassed
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2009 at 08:29
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Alls I have to say is heh heh heh heh heh, huh huh huh huh, heh heh heh heh heh...

Bring on AC/DC.Tongue

Can you give examples - or maybe starting a new thread would be more appropriate.

Frankly, though, I don't think your suggestion stands much of a chance.
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2009 at 08:46
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Alls I have to say is heh heh heh heh heh, huh huh huh huh, heh heh heh heh heh...
[Insert Beavis and Butthead rocking out image here pending approval.  No intention of insulting Metallica fans BTW.]
Bring on AC/DC.Tongue

Can you give examples - or maybe starting a new thread would be more appropriate.

Frankly, though, I don't think your suggestion stands much of a chance.

Now you do realize I was just being silly.  I know their music about as well as I do Metallica's, which is to say hardly at all. LOL




Edited by Slartibartfast - July 09 2009 at 20:09
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 10669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2009 at 10:08
Well it was a nice discussion (till now, ha ha), to get things back on track. When I first heard Puppet I was interested in how American hardcore was merging with metal, interesting times musically. I hadn't listened to prog in a while and considered it to be dormant at best.

Then here comes this Master of Puppets album that I had bought because the first 2 metallica albums just kicked ass for hardcore thrash plus good guitar playing and I'm listening to this and I think damn!, these guys have brought prog-rock back and they did it through the dying emebers of the American hardcore scene, Brilliant!
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Points: 10669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2009 at 10:15
Re Megadeth, I remember them making quite a splash at first, and their music did come across as more technical than Metallica, but not as 'proggy'. Although Megadeth was breaking new ground, they didn't invoke the spirit of prog past the way metallica was.

I'm not saying Megadeth doesn't belong on PA, maybe they do, but I'd say the difference between Megadeth and Metallica is somewhat but not exactly the difference between progressive rock and Progressive Rock.

Re early attempts at mixing hardcore and metal, besides Motorhead and Deep Purple, the first band I heard really get musical with a thrash beat was Raven. Anybody remember them?
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2009 at 18:41
You bet I remember Raven!
 
What a great band - possibly the first Tech metal band - at least, the first I ever heard that put an emphasis on the technical side - I think the Crash, Bang, Wallop EP was released in 1979 - about the same time Maiden broke through with Running Free (or was it Sanctuary?).
 
IIRC, Metallica's first bigs gigs included supporting Raven - good link!
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Points: 10669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2009 at 19:22
Another interesting early attempt to bring something sophisticated to thrash type music was Motorhead's Another Perfect Day. I think a lot of people missed that album, and I think Motorhead fans hate it, but it featured Robo from Thin Lizzy on guitar for just one album.

Robo brings a soaring psychedelic melodic and orchestrated guitar approach to Motorheads relentless pursuit. It's far different from the average Motorhead album, much more melodic and with a full production. As I said before, I think Motorhead fans hate that album, too sophisticated and 'pretty'.
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2009 at 21:12
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

 
good post, I would say however that progressive metal, at least as it was emerging in the San Francisco scene, was not prog elements pasted on metal - or a fusion of the two - as much as an urge to progress heavy metal itself.  The similarities between prog rock and prog metal lie in this creative urge, and less between a musical lineage between the two [though as Certified correctly points out metal was in many ways a product of the progression of rock].. the British and European contributions to the progressing of metal - Priest, Scorpions, Maiden, Ozzy's first two, Angel Witch, etc. - may be more influenced by the prog artists but that is not necessarily clear either, as we see what appears to be independent progression in the material of, say, Uli Roth or Michael Schenker stemming from their own classical backgrounds rather than influence from ELP or Jethro Tull.  If anything we hear influence in Schenker's playing from fellow rocker Tony Iommi more than any prog bands.


Yeah, I agree with this - sorry for the late response by the way Wink - in spirit there is a similarity, because metal did explode unthinkably in the 80s and inconceivable possiblities in metal were experimented with furiously until by the mid 80s, you could barely find resemblance between say Reign in Blood and Stained Class from less than a decade ago.  And you are right about Schenker too, definitely influenced by Iommi. Likewise, I would say Roth was influenced by Hendrix and Blackmore.    The NWOBHM trail a la Angel Witch and Diamond Head  seems to have got lost somewhere in the speeding up of the thrash attack and the polishing of the sound by Iron Maiden at the other end of the spectrum.  I can hear traces of it in what little 80s neo prog I have heard, particularly Twelfth Night but that trail is again a lost once because the neo prog of today doesn't sound a whole lot like what it did then.  
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2009 at 08:09
I don't really hear Schenker's Iommi influence - Schenker has a "chop-based" style, that I'd associate with modern-day technical metal bands, while Iommi's style has more bluff, but creates a pronounced melodic style overall with a relatively low density of "chops".

There is a strong Sabbath/Iommi style in some of the early Scorpions material,  but his own style quickly developed. I think the Prog link is quite clear - the solo at the end of "Into The Arena" clearly implies classical music, and tech-heads will spot how, even though he doesn't shred, he nevertheless uses a great number of techniques intentionally. This is the basis of technical metal - technique and precision, and this later style is decidedly his.

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

 

(...)by the mid 80s, you could barely find resemblance between say Reign in Blood and Stained Class from less than a decade ago. (...)

Interestingly, "Stained Class" is the first album I know of on which the "thrash" technique was used. "Exciter", the track in which it can be found, is also innovative in its twin guitar usage - unlike Wishbone Ash, Thin Lizzy et al before them, they attempt something that sounds vaguely classical, avoiding traditional blues structures. It's not my favourite Priest song, but it's probably their most innovative.

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

  The NWOBHM trail a la Angel Witch and Diamond Head  seems to have got lost somewhere in the speeding up of the thrash attack and the polishing of the sound by Iron Maiden at the other end of the spectrum.

Maiden were one of the first of the NWoBHM - I think they started around 1975 or so (just after Priest - same year as Motorhead). Their original sound was very rough - it wasn't until 1982's "Number of the Beast" that they finally got a slick modern sound.

Black Sabbath got the sound on their 1980 album, "Heaven and Hell" - which I reckon is probably the first Prog Metal album, in terms of sound and style. AC/DC had a modern sound too - compare "Highway To Hell (1979)'s" decidedly 1970s sound with "Back in Black" (1980) - they seem worlds apart, and not just because of Johnson. The other band that suddenly had a new "blinging" metal sound in 1980 was Motorhead; "Ace of Spades" (1980) is still fresh, while "Bomber" (1979) sounds decidedly dated.

Angelwitch's 1st album suffered, production-wise, but nowhere near as bad as Raven, who only got the production they deserved on "All For One" (1983). Persian Risk were another great band on the same label (Neat) that churned out innovative heavy metal acts in the North of England, including Venom and Tygers of Pan Tang - I think they're one of the great overlooked.

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

 
 I can hear traces of it in what little 80s neo prog I have heard, particularly Twelfth Night but that trail is again a lost once because the neo prog of today doesn't sound a whole lot like what it did then.  

Even back then, Twelfth Night were something of a unique band - Marillion were great, but their music was decidedly easier on the ear and less surprising than TN. Even TN sleeked down their sound in the 1980s - compare the style on the early cassettes like "Smiling At Grief" and the album "Live at the Target" with the more Joy Division kind of sound they had on "Fact and Fiction". TN were a Neo-Prog band apart.

Metal had progressive acts too - I suppose I'd have to include Magnum, although I could never stand them, Praying Mantis showed potential - but for my money, Cirith Ungol, who formed in 1972, and Satan are the most criminally overlooked metal bands of that time;

Cirith Ungol - Better off Dead
Cirith Ungol - Atom Smasher

Satan - Trial By Fire (early thrash)

Diamond Head were the original Prog Metallers/Thrashers though - while their style stems from Led Zeppelin, the thrash and intricate/progressive style seems to have come from nowhere - the thrashing bears little resemblance to the steady open E that characterises "Exciter" (released the year before "Lightning to the Nations"). 

My understanding is that they had to tone their music down for MCA. Cry






Edited by Certif1ed - July 10 2009 at 08:10
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2009 at 12:45
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

 

Interestingly, "Stained Class" is the first album I know of on which the "thrash" technique was used. "Exciter", the track in which it can be found, is also innovative in its twin guitar usage - unlike Wishbone Ash, Thin Lizzy et al before them, they attempt something that sounds vaguely classical, avoiding traditional blues structures. It's not my favourite Priest song, but it's probably their most innovative.

Yeah, I am aware of that and had that in mind when I posted that, from there to RIB, sort of the logical conclusion of thrash, is a long journey traversed in less than a decade.  I consider the title track of Stained Class to be more important to thrash metal though; the riffs follow the vocal lines very closely in a way I haven't heard from on any album preceding Stained Class.  Even the bridge and short breakdown leading up to the solo, all very thrash before thrash. 

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

 
Maiden were one of the first of the NWoBHM - I think they started around 1975 or so (just after Priest - same year as Motorhead). Their original sound was very rough - it wasn't until 1982's "Number of the Beast" that they finally got a slick modern sound.

Yeah, and I like both Di Anno albums more than the Bruce phase which has got a renewed lease of life in the last few years.  Not that I think Di Anno is a better singer, in fact Bruce was perfect for the albums they would go on to do with him, but what they did..well, it's nice but it does get boring after a while. LOL
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