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harmonium.ro 
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 18 2008 Location: Anna Calvi Status: Offline Points: 22989 |
 Posted: July 07 2009 at 08:02 |
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That's theoretically corect, but if we would apply it to the PA database there would be a maximum of 5-10% of the bands left  Let's face it: not all prog bands are progressive. However it's true that all the great ones were. That's why they were/are great. |
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akin
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: February 06 2004 Location: Brazil Status: Offline Points: 976 |
Posted: July 07 2009 at 08:41 |
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My post is placed right after yours by coincidence, but it does not refer to you in particular, but to many things that happen in this forum (and other forums as well) in general. It has nothing to do with the band Metallica, but has a lot to do with the billions of discussions about Metallica (I still remember a time when many, many threads were hijacked and degenerated into a discussion about "progness" of Metallica). Never seem many arguments for or against that were not opinions turned into facts by repeating them at exhaustion. Recently, every controversial band proposed follow the same pattern of discussion, regardless if it is added or not. |
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UMUR
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 3069 |
Posted: July 07 2009 at 09:08 |
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Hell yeah. Lots to love for a prog fan in Katatonia´s music. I´m on the third option with Metallica though. I don´t see their relevance to PA. I do enjoy reviewing their albums. I´m a big fan of a select couple of them.
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: July 07 2009 at 09:29 |
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Fortunately, most of the Metallica discussions are confined to this thread, where they belong - it has not spiralled out of control, as the addition of Radiohead did, for example. The reason I thought you were referring specifically to my last post is that I was so careful to split opinion from fact - and obviously will stand to be corrected where I have got the facts wrong about that particular song. Ultimately, there is no discussion left to have really - but Transgressor (a newcomer to this forum) started a new discussion, querying why Metallica and not other bands, particularly Megadeth - so really, this should be explored. Possibly it should be explored in a new thread - as there is some compelling evidence in Megadeth's music. The main issue I have with it in general is that despite occasionally exploring quite different styles, and being quite intricate in many places most of Megadeth's music sits in a very tightly defined zone of tritonic riffs with interesting rhythms in self-contained cells - as if the ideas came individually. This does not sit comfortably with my idea of progressive music, while Metallica's evolving riffs concept matches the kind of riff development you can hear plainly in 21st Century Schizoid Man. It's a close call - but I think the difference is evident enough. |
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: July 07 2009 at 10:00 |
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good point Certif1ed. And one that is repeatedly made - if the "evidence" is there, a group will or should hopefully be admitted at PA (which seems to mean being admitted to the loony bin, right now
) . And as any good lawyer can tell you (this is not a reference to you Ivan, rather the comparison to court cases), there is sometimes a basis for a re-trial, so to speak. Not to re-hash old evidence, or to repeat old arguements, but to add to the case being presented an angle, or info - proof if you will - that can make a substantial difference in the strength of the presentation. And yes, it does happen that the big improvement is simply putting it all together in a better way so that it makes more sense. Kudos to Transgressor, it seems that you've quickly learned how to turn a fan's subjective enthusiasm into what can be as close as one can get to an objective attempt at determining whether a band's music is prog or not. Keep up the good work. Kudos also to Certif1ed for praising his debating partner on such skills, and for taking the time to respond in kind to Transgressor's very well thought out points. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED MORE OF. The passion part is as important as the presentation of one's reason for holding a point of view. SO bravo to both  , and all others here who have made the effort to focus on the "proof" they can offer  , rather than just throwing up subjective claims of "X is here, Y should be because they are just as prog", without bothering to point out aspects that support the claim. Edited by debrewguy - July 07 2009 at 10:35 |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Transgressor
Forum Newbie 
Joined: July 04 2009 Status: Offline Points: 12 |
Posted: July 07 2009 at 12:33 |
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No no Debrewguy, a moment...
If I have quit the discussion is not for what you are thinking about ... The reasons are: 1- generally, I don't like forums. I rarely take part on seriuoses discussions (I'm thinking about art and/or philosophy etc...). there are many reasons for it...but I tell you only one: it takes me too long time and spends a very hard work to follow a serious discussion. And, to me, especially in English. Some of the posts here took me 1 hour or so.. (So, why have I entered this forum?...Simply, it was an impulsive decisions after seeing on prog archives the black album review on this site. I was only searching for Crack The skye reviews  )2- I've said what I have to say. This discussion has taken a way where the questions and answers, and explanations, will grow (develop) into a large increase. * If, in the future, I will (would) propose a band to enter prog archives obviously I'll have to fight in everymanner to support my "nominations". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ In forums, and in general in all the things concerning discussion and, obvious,language (dialectic) it's really difficult to understand each other and the Hegelian synthesis, often, is impossible to reach. I think that some things I have written has been misinterpret or I have explained not so well (and my english sucks). (I have never said, for example that KIMB is a prog release...or...but that's my fault, want that the discussion concerning on - or only on- Megadeth). In some posts (one or two) I was too impulsive in the response (maybe due to the denial of proggy elements in Coroner's Grin and Mental Vortex or RIP )However, I'm not the one who is closed in his personal ideas and consider them a dogma...or the one that doesn't ready to revise his ideas or to expand my point of view (maybe except Metallica seen like a true prog band...and not prog related, is a little too much )Debrewguy: you are free to believe me or not, but I don't want to spent all my free time and energy I have at home (and not only home, because the ideas of the discussions follows you for all day) ...for two or three days is well...then is too much. (Obviously, also, it depends on how much the discussion his important for you... ) Well...is that my final post?...in this forum I don't know... In this thread I think yes (or hope so)...  *only, for example, for an accurated musical analysis I have to contact someone or some friends that studied music or that play guitar. Edited by Transgressor - July 07 2009 at 12:58 |
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2007 Location: Michigan, U.S. Status: Offline Points: 66354 |
Posted: July 07 2009 at 16:05 |
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Only slightly related, when Dream Theater announced that you get a free download of one of their tracks from Roadrunner, I signed up for it, so I could get the free MP3. Today, I got an email that they are giving out a free download of the new Megadeth song Head Crusher, so if any one is interested. http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: July 07 2009 at 16:29 |
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^Heh! Sounds exactly like I expected it to.
Great stuff - thanks! (I liked it).
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: July 07 2009 at 16:33 |
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@Certif1ed: I thought about writing a lengthy answer to your in depth analysis of that Megadeth song. The problem is that I don't really have the time, so I'll keep it short and simple:
About your analysis: I have complete transcription books of two Metallica albums (RtL and MoP) and played most of the songs on the guitar, as well as many songs from AJFA and the Black Album. I think that I have a pretty good idea of why you think that their music is so much advanced compared to Megadeth. You are really obsessed with form, and you value it above all else. I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is your tendency to make it the only prog criterium that really matters. Complexity comes in many forms. You keep comparing "complex" to "complicated" ... I think there are even more "shades": 1. Complex form 2. Complex arrangements 3. Stuff that's "difficult to play" I think there are at least those three. Eric Johnson's classic track "Cliffs of Dover" is a good example of a track that's really difficult to play. I would never call it "prog" though. I'm with you in that matter, merely making a part more difficult to play does not make it prog. As far as the first two types of complexity are concerned: I think that this distinction is really difficult to make for anyone who's not a trained musician. They're also never completely separate ... I think you'll agree that as childish Dream Theater's music may seem to your expert mind, they do manage to write songs that feature more complex form than your average AC/DC song (no insult intended - I love AC/DC). Likewise, I think it's clear that not every King Crimson track is a stellar masterpiece of musical form. To conclude: "Prog" encompasses far more than you think it should. It encompasses Dream Theater, The Flower Kings and Spock's Beard. It contains music that is very experimental, music that's very elaborate, music that's very complex, music that's drawing from many influences, spacey music, improvisational music, classical-influenced music, symphonic-sounding music, mellotron and flute solos. You may think that you have found a simple definition that focuses on complex form, but let me tell you (you're free to ignore it of course): Your definition won't be adequate as long as it excludes bands like Dream Theater. |
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: July 07 2009 at 18:45 |
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Uh Oh. Now we have three intelligent posters for this thread - Transgressor, Certif1ed, and Progfreak.
T, we gotta shape up & suit up and show 'em how we can match them. I haven't seen this much thought put into a thread in a while (once you get past some of the crap) |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: July 07 2009 at 19:38 |
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Yikes, just realized this thread was created in October??
Edited by JJLehto - July 07 2009 at 19:39 |
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10669 |
Posted: July 07 2009 at 19:44 |
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Yeah, it's been dormant for a while, like a stubborn campfire it flares up again occaisonally. I'm glad Tony put a lock on the Hendrix thread.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: July 07 2009 at 20:03 |
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Yeah, I didn't realize it was that old.
So this is pretty much now a debate for debate's sake. Jeez people let it go, I have.....and it didn't take months |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: July 08 2009 at 02:05 |
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^It's not a debate any more, it's just a discussion. If people want to continue it, then that's fine, isn't it? Why should we stop discussing it any more than any other band in this archive?
Better to keep all the discussion in one single thread than have loads of new ones about the same subject I think.
Anyway, it's not all about Metallica these days...
Not really - it is an important aspect, but one that gets overlooked because it's the least understood.
Hence it seems to you that I'm "obsessesd" with it, because I'm one of the very few who actually talks about it - and I enjoy exploring musical form, so why not.
Possibly more - but there is a difference between truly complex, where the various bits and pieces are different yet interlock (which is a hard compositional process), and complicated, where simple stuff is decorated with technical twiddly bits, which might be hard to play, but do not make the music intrinsically complex.
It's not really a hard distinction to make.
Actually, the form of Dream Theater's songs tends not to get that much more complex than the average AC/DC song, once you take away the "twiddly bits". Essentially, they're all standard songs (Intro/Verse/Chorus etc) with extended intros, instrumental bridges and codas. Even AC/DC wrote songs like this - "Let There Be Rock" is probably the best example.
How do you know this?
I think "Prog" encompasses a wide variety of music!
It doesn't really exclude Dream Theater - it's an inclusive, not an exclusive definition.
However, Dream Theater are quite clearly at the weaker end of the scale, when you get down to it and analyse the music - which is why you don't see many rave reviews of them from fans of 1970s Prog.
Besides, few people review from a technical analysis point of view - that is a gap in the market that I like to fill because I enjoy it and no other reason. It's not my intention to "bash" Dream Theater because I don't like them, it's my intention to rip the music apart and analyse it. If it crumbles, then that's not my doing.
I dislike ELP's music probably as much as I dislike Dream Theater's, yet, when I analyse ELP's music, it's chock full of interesting compositional things - even though the technical proficiency in performance is not as high as DTs.
Most people review purely from their own tastes - and that's fine - but when analytical people like me come along and ask why something is so proggy when it's blatantly not, the bottom line is usually that it simply isn't. It just sounds like it could be. Best example, Porcupine Tree. No offense to their fans, but this is not complex music by any stretch of anyone's imagination.
Anyway.
Stop changing the subject - this thread is about Metallica, not my personal definition of Prog or Dream Theater.  Edited by Certif1ed - July 08 2009 at 02:07 |
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: July 08 2009 at 03:58 |
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I don't mind you talking about or exploring musical form at all ... I just don't think that it's the governing criterium for defining what's prog and what isn't.
It may be more more difficult than you think ... you simply went back to a binary division (truly complex vs complicated), when clearly it is not as simple as that.
Sure. But the word "wide" is relative ... IMO your definition is much too theoretical. When typical people (that is: without the capability to analyse form like you can) listen to Dream Theater, I'm sure they think "complex". Play someone Pull Me Under and then Let There Be Rock ... do you *really* believe that they would say that both songs are equally complex? I welcome your efforts of analyzing the music the way you do ... but the result - while interesting - has IMO little relevance for a general definition of "Prog".
Well, I think that this may also have a lot to do with the general style of the music ... many simply don't like metal, or LaBrie's voice. In a way I guess it's also similar to what ELP faced in the 70s ... some people don't like "flashy" playing.
It "crumbles" only by your standard.
Like I said: Defining "Prog" is not about one or two single criteria. Porcupine Tree are Prog ... that's a given. It's not up for debate. What you are doing - with Metallica, or any other band - is to narrow the definition artificially, so that it doesn't include the bands that, in your opinion, aren't truly progressive. Still nothing wrong with that, but I don't think that you'll manage to undo definitions that have been used for decades. But you're always welcome to submit some ratings/tags at PF ... participate in defining what's prog and what isn't. |
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akin
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 06 2004 Location: Brazil Status: Offline Points: 976 |
Posted: July 08 2009 at 05:46 |
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And don't ever forget that Prog is a musical genre, part of a movement, so it includes cultural aspects as well.
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: July 08 2009 at 07:39 |
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Nor do I - but it's a very common aspect of the music that defined what "Prog" is in the first place.
The list is endless, but defining album include;
King Crimson - everything on ITCOTCK - possibly Poseidon too, but I haven't analysed that yet.
Genesis - everything on Trespass (and Nursery Cryme).
Gentle Giant - say no more.
ELP - ELP
Standard song form is notable in its absence from these albums
Try also Gong's Radio Gnome trilogy, Hatfield and the North, Can, much Krautrock, Magma, Zappa - the list is almost endless. I do not make these things up to suit myself!
Underlines my point that people get the two confused, don't you think?
I could get very technical about music if I wanted - and people sometimes accuse me of over-complicating or over-analysing. In this case, I was over-simplifying to illustrate the difference, not trying to claim that these are the only ways of breaking it down. I thought this was obvious.
You mean AC/DC are prog, in your view???
At a fundamental level they are - it doesn't matter if people agree or not.
If people can't hear that, then that's probably down to their lack of musical appreciation.
Well the Prog experts here and at Wikipedia seem to think it has a fair bit of relevance.
I don't claim to have found the perfect way of defining it - but you have to admit, it's a lot better than any of the other definitions that currently exist.
Write a better one instead of complaining about mine!
While mine has weaknesses, I don't believe you've truly hit on any yet.
No - as soon as you pull it to pieces and look at the individual elements, there's not much there - just like much pop music.
The point here is that you can take almost any Prog band you like from the 1970s, and pull the music apart and find surprises, which is one of the joys of analysis.
With Dream Theater, you will find unusual time signature riffs and modal scales or arpeggios played very quickly and precisely - but it seems that this is the end, ie the reason is to use these techniques.
In 1970s Prog, bands had to resort to these sort of techniques because that was the only way to express the music - this is a very fine line and I can see the arguments looking, but I'm not going to get into this one; To my ears (ie, in my opinion), this is how it is.
Actually...
This is not true. What evidence do you have of this?
I arrived at my conclusions by listening to the music and discussing it with people who like it - and most of my conclusions have been agreed with, and mesh well with every available definition of Prog on the Internet, even if it's not a perfect match.
Let's face it, most definitions that exist are very vague, romanticised interpretations full of extreme generailsations - and often provably inaccurate about almost any given Prog band.
On the contrary, I reinforce them - I am not attempting to "undo" anything, but to get closer to a decent and reasonably accurate definition.
On second thoughts, you don't even mention which definitions these are that I'm "undoing". Please quote these definitions so that I can see how I am undoing them - and please indicate the ways in which I am "undoing them".
Well, there probably are cultural aspects too - I'm not interested enough in sociology to consider these though. If you'd care to write something up about this, I'll gladly discuss it and add something to Wikipedia.
"Movements" in music rarely actually exist - artists decide they want to play in a certain style (most commonly a fashionable one) or with a particular approach.
For example, while the "Classical" movement is commonly cited to have been some kind of movement between given dates, sandwiched between the "Baroque" and "Romantic" movements, there was never any kind of co-ordinated mass shift to these styles - hence the dates commonly reported in history books are almost always different to each other - in other words, wrong. Most decent musical history books own up to this, so it's not controversial.
Approach before style is rare - the late 1960s was about the only time that approach became more widespread than general style in popular music (of course, "Classical" or, more accurately, non-popular / formally educated music went through this phase in the early part of the 20th Century), hence popular music almost suddenly stopped being reasonably clear-cut into jazz, soul, rock and roll, country and western, ballad, merseybeat or whatever, and went into complete meltdown.
In the late 1960s, bands were playing Progressive Rock, Heavy Metal, Electro-pop, funk, reggae, punk, Trip-hop, Psychedelic - and much of it fell into more than one of those categories!
There was an identifiable "Progressive Music" scene, as we have documented reports of it, and the music that came out of that scene was generally held to be "intelligent" and somehow above ordinary pop music.
From this scene, both Heavy Metal and Progressive Rock arose.
One could argue that therefore, they are the same thing - except that Heavy Metal went into the direction of repetitive riffing and regular (though extended) songs, and Progressive Rock went in whatever direction it chose, as long as it was not standard pop / rock music.
You could safely argue that Prog Rock music brought new and interesting things to the party, with a focus on creating new music while this was not really the requirement of Heavy Metal, unless it was one louder, a bit faster or a bit more flash - but essentially the same old heavy metal beloved of the fans.
Really, all Prog Rock did was to bring together lots of diverse ideas that had already been thrown into the cauldron by the Progressive Music "scene" (I know, "scene" is just as bad as "movement", but there were identifiable "scenes" in London particularly, at the Marquee and UFO clubs, and Ladbroke Grove, among other places).
So when Metallica came along in 1982 (I know, 1981 really - but '82 is the first recorded release), bringing together diverse elements of heavy metal - and turning it up to 11 at the same time, we knew we were listening to something altogether different to the heavy metal we were used to. Check out the very first Metal Massacre LP and compare all the music on there. Do Metallica stand out like a sore thumb or what?
In 1984, they did it again - their covers of Blitzkrieg's "Blitzkrieg" and especially Diamond Head's "Am I Evil" showed the world again that Metallica were something very different - check out the first Speed Kills compilation LP on Music For Nations (1985). Again, "Fight Fire With Fire" shows a band very much ahead of the pack - both Megadeth and Slayer are represented on this album, as are Exodus (Kirk's old band), Celtic Frost, Possessed and Venom, kick-starters of the whole thrash thing. Movement, if you really want.
The music of "FFWF" alone is so outstandingly advanced, precise and innovative over all their contemporaries that it cannot be wondered at that, with hindsight, we can easily consider Metallica a Progressive Metal band in both a musical and a very literal sense. They weren't the only ones, they were not the best musicians - but neither Pink Floyd nor King Crimson were alone in their radical approaches, which translated to unique sounds and styles - and few would argue that Floyd are the greatest musicians ever - but at what they did, they were most assuredly the best.
Hmm.
Just felt like writing that because it felt good to write - it kinda flowed out, like a piece of music does - I haven't even proof-read it for errors, so there are probably loads.
It probably belongs somewhere else, but if anyone actually reads it, I'd be interested in the comments.
 Edited by Certif1ed - July 08 2009 at 07:40 |
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Posted: July 08 2009 at 08:07 |
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This thread takes some digesting.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: July 08 2009 at 13:11 |
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^^ nice post, Certif1ed! We'll probably never reach an agreement, but I respect your opinion. You have to admit though that your position regarding Prog is really not compatible with that of most experts of the genre. If you now think "where does he get that idea from" ... have a look at this list:
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: July 08 2009 at 14:15 |
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My understanding of Prog goes up to roughly the mid 1980s.
After that, I'm baffled really, as I simply cannot accept most of what's called Prog now as being fundamentally the same music. I cannot imagine where the "experts" get their information from - it's just not the same (note that I am not saying it is worse or better or anything like that). There are flashes, in bands like Spock's Beard, and interesting innovations in the music of bands like Spastic Ink, and amazing musicians like John Zorn - but these are rare.These latter have the gift of being able to come up with something musically surprising - even if sporadically, in the case of Neil Morse... I've asked many times for a bit of assistance from the mid 1980s to the present day, but no-one seems to have any usable suggestions. Or do they...? Anyone up for writing an essay entitled "Prog - The vacuum years, 1986-1996" or similar? And another one "Prog - the reboot, 1996 - present"?
Heh - if it was hard to convince the Prog Metallers that Metallica are related, it's near impossible to convice Classic Proggers - even though the music does bear a close resemblance to some of it. As I see it, Metallica are the bridge between the two genres - they have much in common with both. Not surprisingly, then, they are widely rejected by both who cannot or will not hear it.
Edited by Certif1ed - July 08 2009 at 14:17 |
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Metallica ?
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Certif1ed wrote: