The Atheist - Agnostic - Non religious thread

Ivan, I think your tenacity and restlessness and ego are starting to show.  Perhaps you better leave for good.  True, debates can be entertaining, even enlightening, but you maintain you will leave.... why keep coming back then; you have to get the last word in (as a lawyer)?

avalanchemaster wrote: Ivan, I think your tenacity and restlessness and ego are starting to show.  Perhaps you better leave for good.  True, debates can be entertaining, even enlightening, but you maintain you will leave.... why keep coming back then; you have to get the last word in (as a lawyer)?

I suppose I personally don't see the point in debating minutiae and splitting hairs down to the last scrap.  (this directed at anybody really) Seems absurd from where I stand.  It's relentlessness like that which keeps the never-ending fighting going.  You're just two rams battering at each other in a stalemate.  Is it now a point of manliness and ego?  I have a right to my opinion, and you have a right to yours.  Since this is an open debate, that is my 2 cents.

Alitare wrote: But you know, differentiations in currency...

I am guessing that, due to inflation, I would have to state it as my 10 cents (or so)!

Well this is going to appear very arrogant, but I am going to quote myself, just in case anybody missed my original first post of the thread (and got lost in the heated discussion).  Feel free to reply or make comments.  I am open to constructive criticism!

avalanchemaster wrote: "Well , where is God?", said Mrs. Coulter, "If he's alive?"  "And why doesn't he speak anymore?  At the beginning of the world, God walked in the garden and spoke with Adam and Eve.  Then he began to withdraw, and forbade Moses to look at his face.  Later, in the time of Daniel, he was aged--he was The Ancient of Days.  Where is he now?  Is he still alive, at some inconceivable age, decrepit and demented, unable to think or act or speak and unable to die, a rotten hulk?  And if that is his condition, Wouldn't it be the most merciful thing, the truest proof of our love for God, to seek him out and give him the gift of death?" (Philip Pullman; His Dark Materials trilogy; book 3; The Amber Spyglass.... quite easily the best adolescent's reader that utilizes christian ideas to take a different look at the possibility of a different reality besides a Pro-God, Pro-Christian dogma.  Amazing read!) I was raised Mormon- a Cult if there ever was one...and a big one at that.  I do not care about other's beliefs and these days I tend to stray far from this sort of discussion, because you get people that are far too passionate about their own SUBJECTIVE beliefs, and start debating them feverishly, as if their very salvation/soul depended on converting everyone.  Utter bullsh*t.  Leave it alone for people to discover their beliefs on their own.  If they cannot discover their own subjective truth, well then they may be candidates for the Darwin Awards, dying off and leaving the more fit to survive into the future. But since we are asking, let me be passionate for a moment: In the bible, we are made to think that man was created in God's image.  I think they got it backwards;  God was created in man's image.  It is the ultimate testament of existential anxiety and grief.  We need so much to not feel isolated and alienated, that we create fantasies and fairytales (whose to say that in another 1000 years, they won't be worshipping Hairy Potter?) and allegories to teach us to come together and not be so frightened of some big gaping UNIDENTIFIED hole at the end of our lives.  That's nice if you believe in heaven, but show me the proof either way;  existence/non-existence in God/Satan/Heaven/Hell...... and I will show you a man/woman who can train themselves to believe anything, so long as it ails their suffering and anxiety, ultimately pushing doubt and fear away in a huge (possibly delusional) wave.  I may be delusional too, in many of your minds, but I at least like to think that I try to face my own truth head on... without the aid of someone else's ideals.  Beliefs can be dangerous either way, because when you filter everything through a binary system of beliefs, there is no room for debate/doubt.  He who doubts is shunned.  In our pro-Christian nation of America; there is only one "Accepted" religious belief system; and that is judeo-christian/Puritanical systems.  We go to war in the name of God.(the Horror!)  We print dollar bills in the name of God.  We erect our monuments to show God what good we have done in his name.  Everything for a THEN and THERE belief system.... the afterlife, supposing one acted good in the forelife, is assumed as a reward granted upon the completion of requisite actions.  (that's not to say that morals are bad)  How sad that people focus more on death and the afterlife more than the HERE AND NOW.  Pro-war/anti-abortion seems to be the order of the day for the fundamentalist, "religious right" (the supposed "Moral Majority"- as if a majority proves righteousness- what of lynchmobs and crowds of riotous persons?   Are they "right" too?  "Insanity in individuals is rare, but in groups, epochs and nations- it is the rule"- Nietzsche)  I for one am disgusted by the tyrannical and fascistic methods that the CHURCH (as it were- all organized religion- even those that invert christianity) have committed many atrocities and will continue to, because they belief as a gestalt unit, that they are right beyond reasonable doubt---- BECAUSE GOD SAID SO.  That's f**king scary.  In the end, I would much rather just let people believe what they want to (why not the Flying Spaghetti Monster?  Or the Church of the Subgenius?)... as long as it does not encroach on my rights and liberties to lead my life as I see fit, in turn harming nobody else, (unless of course it is a matter of life and death- kill or be killed.... we are all just supposedly aware animals anyway, right?) I hope I have not necessarily converted people, but merely shared my experience with you guys.  I have read Dawkins' The God Delusion- and he asks the same questions;  Proof of existence or non-existence.... there is none (proof- there is only faith- which can be defined as "belief in the face of counter-evidence") either way.  That in my mind makes Agnosticism fit confortable in my mind as a very logical answer to that gnawing question of God. Now be good little boys and girls and quit arguing over Subjective (non-factual) (personal) beliefs!

It was indeed, and I happen to agree with practically everything you said!

SergiUriah wrote: Do atheists say: "Oh, my God!"?, or that exclamation set phrase is prohibited for them?

You probably wouldn't like what I say instead.

How's about this: where do you non-theists get your morals, and do you have any confidence that they're valid?

Common sense changes from culture to culture and time to time. If you want morals to be valid, they have to be universal (I think). I don't really have a problem saying that for some issues for our time, (like murder), it is wrong, but for more ambiguous issues, like abortion, there is no right answer because it's not unanimous.

Quite so Stonie.  Some of those morals could also be called immorals to some people too.

What I mean by by "common sense" is that they would have developed independently of any religious tenets that mention morality.