The Atheist - Agnostic - Non religious thread

avalanchemaster wrote: so back on track: good books for Atheists who want to temper weigh their individual ideas against others'???? I personally really enjoyed Richard Dawkins "The God Delusion" as well as the trilogy I previously mentioned, "His Dark Materials" by Philip Pullman....the first book was made into a terribly rendered movie:  The Golden Compass- but I assure you, the books are nothing short of AMAZING!

Any of the Four Horseman material:
Dawkins, Dennet, Harris, Hitchens.

Here is a debate DVD.
Hitchens vs. Craig
Which I attended.
http://www.biola.edu/academics/professional-studies/apologetics/events/

Debating faith is a bit like debating Abortion though....it's rarely going to end well.....and tends to just solidify the views you held previously.  Mainly useful for the sport of joust I guess. 

I still think the only honest answer to faith questions is "I don't know."  If you don't at least start with the premise that you could be wrong, whatever your view, you're not being intellectually honest. 

Finnforest wrote: Debating faith is a bit like debating Abortion though....it's rarely going to end well.....and tends to just solidify the views you held previously.  Mainly useful for the sport of joust I guess.

Are you suggesting that we joust with aborted fetuses? That's just immoral


Edited by King By-Tor - June 06 2009 at 23:14

Might as well explain my "story" or what have you.

Finnforest wrote: Debating faith is a bit like debating Abortion though....it's rarely going to end well.....and tends to just solidify the views you held previously.  Mainly useful for the sport of joust I guess.

your post was a good read, MWH

Raff wrote: JJLehto wrote: Sean Trane wrote: [      In another debate , Ivàn cannot comprehend that free masons are not atheists (everyone in atheism knows that catholics, Jews and Muslims (even Amish if they wish it) are welcome in the temples of Free Masonry, as long as they leave their religions outside the doors.          It's true Ivan. In fact to be a Mason you MUST believe in God. Or at least put it down that you do....They welcome ANYONE as long as you believe in a higher power. And as you said, that is the extent. While you have to profess to believing in a higher power there is NO breakdown inside. So yea, Masons are not atheists. NOW, there's those people out there who think the opposite...that Masons are a religious cult bent on a NWO That is true. I have a friend who is a Freemason (though he's not supposed to tell outsiders), and he told me as much. You HAVE to believe in some sort of spiritual higher power, though it does not have to be any form of organised religion.

Windhawk wrote: One little tidbit from The Norwegian Humanist Association which might interest someone in the debate: The Association will work: - For a state professing a neutral life stance, freedom to choose any life stance and respect for human rights in a pluralistic society. - To ensure that everyone will be able to choose humanist ceremonies. - To develop humanist life-stance and welfare services. - To offer members a social and organisational framework for life stance identity and a sense of community. - To spread knowledge of humanism and the organisation’s activities In what manner is this different from the activities of any given religion I wonder?

Well, Olav, if you think that in the countries that had a so-called 'Communist' government (which practiced militant atheism, often actively persecuting religion) you could recognise a distinctly 'religious' attitude to both the ideology and its leaders, you should not be too surprised. What's the diference between queuing up to visit Lenin's mausoleum, or visiting the shrine of some saint?

IMO, the whole Atheism/Agnostic = religion argument is false.  We are dealing with a country that about 90-10% believes in God, so these people are the distinct minority.  Of that minority, a very small number of people are militant, FAR smaller than the militant Christian right in America who are large enough to be truly heard and respected as a group (even politicians must attempt to woo them). 

Most of the unbelievers do not attend a weekly event, do not try to proselytize, and do not seek to get involved in government to advance their work.  They simply try to live our lives in a society where we have to see and hear about everybody's faith in God.....every......single.....day......and it gets old.  So this whole argument is just laughable to the unbelievers I know.  They look at the mountainous difference between the behavioral expectations placed on atheists versus the carte blanche given to noble evangelicals, with their self-righteous attitudes about the conversion of others and their "Jesus Army" mentality of advancing the cause, and laugh.  You can't be serious.  I suppose when the media makes a big deal about some guys suing Santa Claus, the public gets all whipped up and the churches send their email action teams into full force looking for sympathy, one could get the impression that we evil agnostics  are out to take over.  It's just false (and copying some Internet list of atheist "commandments" proves nothing about the actual reality there on the street). 

There is no movement in America that is on the radar of most unbelievers, it is a miniscule joke compared with the evangelical/christian movement and their vast empire in numbers, dollars, infrastructure, cultural holidays/traditions, and television/radio presence.  Please stop equating the two without making this HUGE distinction. Most unbelievers could care less about these organizations you point to.  The same cannot be said of the Christians in America, who do organize quite successfully and seek to promote/expand to a serious, measurable degree. 

If you wish to say that unbelievers are defensive and crabby, fair enough.  Some do get that way and lash out in anger at the RR, and maybe that's wrong of them.  But to compare the tactics and power of the two on any realistic level, in America, is just not factual in the daily life I see around me.   Perhaps in Europe it is different.  






Edited by Finnforest - June 07 2009 at 10:32