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stonebeard View Drop Down

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Posted: June 06 2009 at 02:25

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

stonebeard wrote:

Nowhere, of course. You'll never get beyond any doubt, likely. In my view, rational holes in religious texts and silly twisting of religious dogma is more important to counter than belief in God, even though I think there is enough evidence to make believing in a theist God less reasonable than not doing so.

Then your lack of faith is an act of faith equivalent to our's, you have no proves but you believe he doesn't exist.

Your position is as valid as our's, deserves all respect, but it's only a theory because it can't be proved.

Iván

I wish you would stop bringing the language of "proof" into this because neither side can be proven strictly either way. I'm talking about evidence and logic, of which I think makes:

1) The likelihood of any religious text anywhere near accurate pretty far off, especially regarding miracles.

2) The existence of a creator unnecessary, unprovable, and hard to provide good evidence for which only it can account, which renders belief in one superfluous.

Then again, isn't it so self-centered of us to purport our logic to be universally applicable, as if it even stood a chance of proving the existence of something God is supposed to be? It could all be wrong for all we know. This is what renders strong belief in Atheism or Theism pointless, IMO. It's fun to talk about, but if you actually think you're really getting to the heart of the truth of the matter, it seems silly to me.

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Posted: June 06 2009 at 03:45

stonebeard wrote:

I wish you would stop bringing the language of "proof" into this

But if we manage to prove God exists in this thread, he'll disappear and all the atheists will be happy! Douglas Adams ftw.

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Posted: June 06 2009 at 07:58

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Dean wrote:

Belief in the existence of god is not the same as believing in god - no one would deny that satan (if he existed

) would believe in the existence of god, though I doubt that he believes in god. So while atheism is not believing in god, it is also the absence of belief in the existence of a god, this is not the same as a belief in the non existence of god.

Atheism is a non-belief, so cannot be an act faith, [I've rewritten this paragraph several times now and it is very difficult to explain] - a christian believes that god exists - an atheist does not have that belief.

Believing is different concept than worshiping, Im sure that Satan believes in God, because God created Satan.

BTW: Your definition af atheism is not exact, or beter said selective, you are ignoring POSITIVE ATHEISTS:

"positive" atheism refers to the specific belief that gods do not exist, and "negative" atheism refers merely to an absence of belief in gods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_and_strong_atheism

So it's a fact that for some atheists (I believe the majority), Atheism is a system of beliefs.

Not ignoring or being selective, just not quoting a load of irrelevant philosophising. Atheism is not a "system", there is no ritual or codex to follow, no rules to adhere to, if it is "belief" then it is a figure of speech - it is belief with a small "b". The problem is that language was developed in parallel with religious belief - there is no word that adequately replaces the word "belief" when referring to non-religious concepts because one was never needed before.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Dean wrote:

An atheist does not need to prove the non-existence of a god by the same reasoning that a christian does not need to prove the non-existence of Apollo, Odin or Quetzalcoatl. There is no proof to the non-existence of Zeus, but asserting that he did not exist is not regarded as an act of faith.

Don't be so sure, for example the religious order, Forn Siðr (Odin worshipers) was granted permission to have an exclusively pagan burial ground in Denmark, so if there is people worshiping Odin and officially accepted by the Danish Government, why not Zeus?.

You can verify this at http://www.fornsidr.dk/dk/50#p1

And if I believe Jehova, Yaveh or the one with no name (Ego sum qui sum) is the true God, then I believe Odin is not God.

Some forms of Odinism are particularly unpleasant and support racism - whether that is sanctioned as a true religion by one nation is immaterial to me and does not ratify the existence of Odin as a god. It is clear that the present day paganism is a reinvention in name only, not a continuation of an ancient belief.

In the 2001 official population census 0.78% of the population of England and Wales declared themselves to be of the Jedi religion - the government has not officially sanctioned Jedi as being a true religion, but it does show on official statistics as being the forth most popular religion in the country ("390,000 Jedi there are"). Over half a million people across the English-speaking world have declared themselves Jedi on census forms. You don't need to believe that The Force does not exist - you know it is a fiction from the mind of George Lucas.

In the modern era the ancient gods of Greece, Rome, Egypt, Scandinavia, Central America, etc. are regarded as mythology - having people still worshipping those gods today does not validate them.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Dean wrote:

Belief in the existence of a monotheistic god automatically denies the existence of all other god-like entities ("I am a jealous god, worship no other god but me" - is not a statement that other gods exist, but a warning against worshipping false gods - "I am the first and the last, there is no god beside me"). In principle if the existence of any non-Abrahamic god could be proved then that would essential prove the non-existence of Jehovah.

The existence of an only God doesn't imply he is jealous, of who can he be jealous if the other gods don't exist?

That is a matter of interpretation not of proven truth. At the time of writing down the scriptures there were many tribes worshipping many different gods, most middle eastern religions were polytheistic. The first documented believers in a monotheistic religion were the followers of Aten in Egypt from the 14th century BCE and some historians have speculated that there is a link between Judaism and Atenism through Moses who was born in Egypt some 50 years after the fall of Atenism as the sole religion of Egypt and 200 years after the arrival of the Israelites into Egypt. I am not claiming that the god of Israel is synonymous with Aten, but simple observing that on seeing that a nation could easily fall back into polytheistic ways the scripture writers would need to declare that their god would be displeased if his followers should revert back to worshipping the old gods, whom they believed to be false (fictional) gods. The god of Abraham is not jealous of other gods, but of people worshipping other gods. Those other gods did not have to exist for god to be jealous. I maintain that for a monotheistic religion there can not be other gods.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

And yes, we believe there's no other God, but some of us also believe that people see God in a different way than us, and that at the end all people worship the same God only that their perception of him is different.

As a fact on another thread i proved that Catholic Church admits salvation not only of Christians of other denominatioons, but also of non Christians who are faithful to their own moral code and search for God in a sincere way.

The fate of non-Catholics, as expressed at Vatican II:

5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/rcc_salv.htm

In other words, we are not talking of a jealous God for everybody, and you can't blame God for the misinterpretations of the humans.

Could this not be that the Catholic church is recognising that the god of Christianity, Judaism and Islam are the same god without specifically recognising (ie naming) those religions - there is some speculative accounts that could also include Hinduism into that, with Vishnu equating to Jehovah and Jesus equating to Krishna, but I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable on the Hindu faith to comment on that. However, I doubt that it really refers to Apollo, Zeus, Odin or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Dean wrote:

An atheist denies the existence of all gods, (not a belief, but an assertion; not a theory but an axiom), so would just add Jehovah and all the biblical angels and demons to the pantheon of mythical gods from other cultures

In other words

(Theories actually require proof to be regarded as a theory - a theory without proof is a hypothesis, an idea that requires no proof is an axiom.)

Atheism can't be an axiom, because an axiom by definition is self evident and is taken to be universally true.

A classical axiom is A = A doesn't need to be proved because it's self evident, but th eexistebnce or non existence of God is not elf evident neither universal, you don't prove God doesn't exist becauise is beyond your capacity.

yeah, you are correct - I did not think that through when I wrote it - Atheism is not an axiom since it is not self evident, however Atheism is still not a theory - it does not have to be proven or more importantly, need to be proven - which is also true of theism.

Nobody has to prove anything - a christian doesn't need to prove the existence of god to believe and an atheist does not need to prove, or disprove, anything - in fact an atheist doesn't need to do anything

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Sorry but only 16% of the world inhabitants are Atheists or Agnostics ( http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html ), so hardly the non existence of God is taken as a universal truth, Atheists may believe it's an axiom, but it's only a theory or an act of faith if you want but in no way an axiom because doesn't fit the characteristic of being universally accepted as true, much less is self evident.

Iván

That page shows that only 54% of the population follow a monotheistic religion, 20% are polytheistic and 28% do not believe in a god of any form, at least not a creator-god. (erm... the maths does not add up

- rounding errors have distorted those numbers too much for them to be useful)

Universal truth does not rely on statistics and numbers. If 84% of the worlds population are on the wrong buses they will never arrive at their desired destination, that said, the other 16% are not on a bus at all because as far as they are concerned there is no destination.

Peace.

/edit - edited for spelling

Edited by Dean - June 06 2009 at 08:04

What?

Slartibartfast View Drop Down

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Posted: June 06 2009 at 07:59

I'm starting to doubt the existence of this thread. I wonder what that makes me? Tongue

Edited by Slartibartfast - June 06 2009 at 08:13

Dean

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Posted: June 06 2009 at 08:05

Slartibartfast wrote:

I'm starting to doubt the existence of this thread. I wonder what that makes me? Tongue

who knows.

What?

Slartibartfast View Drop Down

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Posted: June 06 2009 at 08:13

Dean wrote:

Slartibartfast wrote:

I'm starting to doubt the existence of this thread. I wonder what that makes me? Tongue

who knows.

Someone whose epitaph will be confusion.

Edited by Slartibartfast - June 06 2009 at 08:23

Dean

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Posted: June 06 2009 at 08:17

Slartibartfast wrote:

Dean wrote:

Slartibartfast wrote:

I'm starting to doubt the existence of this thread. I wonder what that makes me? Tongue

who knows.

Someone whose epitaph will be confusion.

Confucius say that man with hole in pocket...

What?

Slartibartfast View Drop Down

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Posted: June 06 2009 at 08:23

Confucius will be my epitaph? Tongue

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: June 06 2009 at 10:43

Thanks Dean for a good and clean debate

Dean wrote:

Dean, you are ignoring that most of the Atheists are positive so most of the BELIEVE that God doesn't exist,

And I believe s a system, there are even Commandments of Atheists:

1. Thou SHALT NOT believe all thou art told.

2. Thou SHALT seek knowledge and truth constantly.

3. Thou SHALT educate thy fellow man in the Laws of Science.

4. Thou SHALT NOT forget the atrocities committed in the name of god.

5. Thou SHALT leave valuable contributions for future generations.

6. Thou SHALT live in peace with thy fellow man.

7. Thou SHALT live this one life thou hast to its fullest.

8. Thou SHALT follow a Personal Code of Ethics.

9. Thou SHALT maintain a strict separation between Church and State.

10. Thou SHALT support those who follow these commandments.

This is the closer you can get to a religious system

Dean wrote:

Some forms of Odinism are particularly unpleasant and support racism - whether that is sanctioned as a true religion by one nation is immaterial to me and does not ratify the existence of Odin as a god. It is clear that the present day paganism is a reinvention in name only, not a continuation of an ancient belief.

Dean, I know Odinism is related with racism, but they fulfill al the criteria to be considered a religion and are recognized as that.....The Jedi thing is only nonsense, doesn't have any thological support and its' part of a modern fiction movie literature, but not the case of Odinism.

I also read that there 's a Bible in Klingon, but's not an oficial laguage.

Dean wrote:

In the modern era the ancient gods of Greece, Rome, Egypt, Scandinavia, Central America, etc. are regarded as mythology - having people still worshipping those gods today does not validate them.

Yes it does, if they have a valid system of beliefs, have ancient theological roots, have followers and are accepted, they are a religion.

Dean wrote:

That is a matter of interpretation not of proven truth. At the time of writing down the scriptures there were many tribes worshipping many different gods, most middle eastern religions were polytheistic. The first documented believers in a monotheistic religion were the followers of Aten in Egypt from the 14th century BCE and some historians have speculated that there is a link between Judaism and Atenism through Moses who was born in Egypt some 50 years after the fall of Atenism as the sole religion of Egypt and 200 years after the arrival of the Israelites into Egypt. I am not claiming that the god of Israel is synonymous with Aten, but simple observing that on seeing that a nation could easily fall back into polytheistic ways the scripture writers would need to declare that their god would be displeased if his followers should revert back to worshipping the old gods, whom they believed to be false (fictional) gods. The god of Abraham is not jealous of other gods, but of people worshipping other gods. Those other gods did not have to exist for god to be jealous. I maintain that for a monotheistic religion there can not be other gods.

Yes it is a matter of interpretation of a non proven truth, just as much as your claim that God is a jealous divinity.

Please Dean, remember when you are talking of Abraham, you are talking about a shepard (Not even a brilliant philosopher) of the Bronze age, don't expect his language to be perfectly coherent in every sense.

I don't believe God is displeased about our behavior or that he gets angry with us, he's above that, an eternal intelligence and compassion can't get angry by our petty acts.

Dean wrote:

Could this not be that the Catholic church is recognising that the god of Christianity, Judaism and Islam are the same god without specifically recognising (ie naming) those religions - there is some speculative accounts that could also include Hinduism into that, with Vishnu equating to Jehovah and Jesus equating to Krishna, but I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable on the Hindu faith to comment on that. However, I doubt that it really refers to Apollo, Zeus, Odin or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

No Dean in no way recognizes an identity with all the Gods, that's rejected by Catholic Catechism, we say that there's only one God who is described by the Creed, but salvation is also availlable for people outside the religion if they SEARCH for God in a sincere way and have an honest moral code..

And please don't discriminate in what the Church doesn't discriminate, they Pope said "Searching for God in a sincere way" this implies any god, and it's a great act of tollerance that has caused problems with most Christian Religions and even inside of the Catholic Religion (Read Marcel Lefebvre).

Dean wrote:

yeah, you are correct - I did not think that through when I wrote it - Atheism is not an axiom since it is not self evident, however Atheism is still not a theory - it does not have to be proven or more importantly, need to be proven - which is also true of theism..

That is my whole point, we are in a situation of balance, not of superiority of Atheists over Religious people as many proclaim.

Dean wrote:

That page shows that only 54% of the population follow a monotheistic religion, 20% are polytheistic and 28% do not believe in a god of any form, at least not a creator-god. (erm... the maths does not add up

- rounding errors have distorted those numbers too much for them to be useful).

I know the numbers exceed 100%, but lets remember that many in Eastern countries, people share two or more religions, a Japanese is normally born Buddhist and marries on a Shinto

Most of the Latin Americans who are members of a native-tribal religion, are also Christians, mainly Catholics, as a fact Santería mixes elements of Paganism and Christianity.

But it's clear, if yo add Christianity, Islam and Hinduism alone, you get a clear 68%, not counting native religions, Judaism, Chinese Traditional religion, etc.

Dean wrote:

Universal truth does not rely on statistics and numbers. If 84% of the worlds population are on the wrong buses they will never arrive at their desired destination, that said, the other 16% are not on a bus at all because as far as they are concerned there is no destination.

Never said that Dean, I talk of Universally accepted truth when you mentioned that Atheism was an axiom, what you have recognized is not the case.

The existence or non existence of God can't be proved by votes or percentages, but neither Atheism is a universally accepted truth that is self evident.

Iván

Edited because my terrible writing

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 06 2009 at 10:45

JJLehto

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Posted: June 06 2009 at 12:02

What Ivan said was true.
Atheism IS faith, IMO.

Not believing in God is the same as believing. Contrary to what many will say there is no PROOF. You may be going on educated beliefs and use what is available but an atheist is still going on their FAITH that there is no God.
Thats why it should be a personal thing. I dont care your belief as long as you dont force it on anyone.

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Posted: June 06 2009 at 12:28

JJLehto wrote:

What Ivan said was true.
Atheism IS faith, IMO.

Not believing in God is the same as believing. Contrary to what many will say there is no PROOF. You may be going on educated beliefs and use what is available but an atheist is still going on their FAITH that there is no God.
Thats why it should be a personal thing. I dont care your belief as long as you dont force it on anyone.

Thanks JJ, this is what I believe you shall not force anybody your beliefs.

This has been the main criticism towards religious people, I was even asked to leave this thread with trthe excuse that i been taught to evangelize, something that every person who knows me will discover it's false, I'm always against Evangelism outside a church, because you tell your truth to a person that doesn't want to listen it and only the one that enters to a church is making an act that proves his desire to receive a determined message..

But just discovered that not only some christians are for evangelism , the third Commandment of the Atheist says:

3. Thou SHALT educate thy fellow man in the Laws of Science. (back to top)
People are generally lazy and hold onto currently held false beliefs. This condition is not acceptable to the ethical atheist. It is not good enough to sit comfortably with your knowledge of the Universe and look in pity at those who are still governed by lies, mythology and sensationalism. Scientific education is the only way to prevail. Only by increasing the comprehension of scientific truths can we hope to continue our progress past the Dark Ages. Only if the world contains more educated people can we hope to not have setbacks. Thou SHALT NOT sit silent and be a closet atheist. Thou SHALT enlighten thy neighbor.

http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/ten_commandments.html

I dare to copy it because the same page says literally:

Let's make copies of these commandments and hang them in county courthouses and public schools throughout the country. Maybe by the end of this millennia, if we all strive to live with these new "commandments," we'll have reshaped our social order into one worthy of honor and respect.

http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/ten_commandments.html

I'm not infringing copyright laws, because the site encourages us to copy them and place them everywhere.

Now please, be honest and i know you are......ISN'T THIS EVANGELISM IN THE MOST CLASSICAL SENSE?????

Must you be afraid of us or must we be afraid of you?

Religious people who evangelize, only want to share their truth, this guys want to reshape the society according to their believes, because they claim it's the only worth of honor and respect....WOW.

Rest my case

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 06 2009 at 12:40

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Posted: June 06 2009 at 13:14

This is "wonderfully" turning into an old thread that went by the name "The Atheist Bus Campaign".

Epignosis

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Posted: June 06 2009 at 13:15

Ricochet wrote:

This is "wonderfully" turning into an old thread that went by the name "The Atheist Bus Campaign".

We should get revenge and start talking about buses. Tongue

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Posted: June 06 2009 at 14:30

JJLehto wrote:

What Ivan said was true.
Atheism IS faith, IMO.

Not believing in God is the same as believing. Contrary to what many will say there is no PROOF. You may be going on educated beliefs and use what is available but an atheist is still going on their FAITH that there is no God.
Thats why it should be a personal thing. I dont care your belief as long as you dont force it on anyone.

Perhaps not for everyone who claims they are atheists, but definitely true for those people (whose names I don't remember now) who write books extolling the virtues of atheism, and putting down anyone who has some sort of spiritual life. Personally, I have been an agnostic for close to 30 years (though born and raised in the Catholic faith, as most Italians still are), and don't need to believe in a God in order to behave decently to my fellow human beings.

However, I don't like those who call religious people a pack of mindless sheep, or anything to that effect. Doing so, in my opinion, is not too many miles removed from religious fanatics telling unbelievers (or even followers of other religions) that they will burn in hell. I believe in mutual respect as the foundation of every human interaction, therefore I agree 100% with the bolded part of the quote.

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Posted: June 06 2009 at 15:04

Ricochet wrote:

This is "wonderfully" turning into an old thread that went by the name "The Atheist Bus Campaign".

Not starting anything about the buses Rico, but at the beginning of this thread I was asked to leave this thread with this excuse:

Plankowner wrote:

Iván and Robert, please don't take offense but I really don't think you guys should be part of this thread. From what I gather you both are very devout Christians and personally I feel there's nothing that can be said by an atheist that could change your mind.

(...)

And I feel I understand the need to reach out to those you feel have lost their way and bring them back if you can. It has been taught to you since childhood.

If you truly respect what others believe then you won't post here.

Despite everybody who knows me is aware I never tried to evangelize anybody in four years on this site.

By the contrary I'm one of the most acid critics of evangelism on music, and this carried me disagreements with other Christian members, because I believe only people who willingly enter to a determined Church to be evangelized, should receive the message, and nobody who is not ready to accept the message, should be deceived through musical lyrics or visits to your house.

But the paradox is that:

1.- The person who asked me to leave says: "I feel there's nothing that can be said by an atheist that could change your mind." In other words...We only want people who can be convinced.

2.- But it's even worst when many of the official Atheist sites create a Commandment in which they ask Atheists to convince people of their "truth".

This is a natural contradiction, that as a Catholic I never tried to convince anybody and ask respect for any believe or disbelief, but I'm accused of doing evangelism, when as a fact the atheist Commandments recommend their followers to "enlighten thy neighbor"......Ehem...Pot...Ketttle.

While Dawkins shouts that it's offensive for them to live in a world of superstition, his followers try to convince people of their beliefs..

That's all, just pointing a paradox.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 06 2009 at 15:09

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Posted: June 06 2009 at 15:40

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

James wrote:

Weak and strong atheism? LOL

I wish people wouldn't keep coming up with these crap and pointless terminologies.

Atheism isn't a series of beliefs either. Not to me, anyhow. I don't believe in the existence of God(s), therefore I cannot be adhering to a belief system. I know God doesn't exist. I cannot prove this but I know.

James, I'm not the one who created this terms, as a fact is a term created by an atheist named Gora if I'm not wrong, and the majority of them (almost sure of this) adopt the Posititive atheism, while Richard Dawkins adopts negative atheism.

And please, if you can't prove something, it's just a belief, only if you can prove it is a fact.

Iván

I lknow what you mean James.

Ivàn 's answer proves that to attack better "the enemy", (that's us "disbelievers ") , it's easier making it an equal or parallel by reducing Atheism to a religion or a faith with dogmas a,nd doctrines. Not long ago, we showed him that those that tried to make these commandments of Atheism only engaged thjeùselves and were followed by no-one

So weak/strong or Positiv/negative atheism .... it's a bunch of crap, designed to master and force atheism into an ideology, which it simùply is not.

I used to participate mots into these threads a few years back (Ivàn can attests), but the same old opnions are just brought back on both sides and I find it tiresome

The only times when i feel strongly or weakly against religion (and not atheism) is when I see fundamentalists imposing their beliefs on others (then I wish to eradicate religions for the good of humankind)

However when i see that lttle old superstitious lady going to church everyday or week, I pêrsonally couldn"t care less whether she's confessing to an imman, a priest or a buddah statue or even a chicken's liver. Istill think her life would gain much in quality if she didn't believe in such falacy, but but it's not worth the time or efffort.

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

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Posted: June 06 2009 at 15:49

Ha, we haven't agreed on much lately Hugues, but I'm with you on that. Wink

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Posted: June 06 2009 at 16:03

Sean Trane wrote:

. Not long ago, we showed him that those that tried to make these commandments of Atheism only engaged thjeùselves and were followed by no-one

Exactly Those "Commandements of the Atheists" were completely unknown to me (and to every atheist I know) until Ivan searched the internet.

You know, you can find anything on the internet. I guess I can find a religious sect that believes in a flying cow or something like that... would that imply that all religious people believe in that flying cow? Or is that just a minority who believe such preposterous thing?

So, that "atheism has commandments" is just generalizing, using infomration found on the internet about specific groups of atheists. Most atheists I knwo have no idea about such things and they want nothing to do with them... after all, having a set of "commandements" all but kills the whole atheism thing...

After all, atheism, said in blunt terms, is just a lack of belief. Now you don't need 10 commandments to tell how not to believe, do you??

So please don't throw all atheists in the same bag for just a few websites that may be around... is the same if we threw all christians in the same basket with the murdered of Dr Tiller... that some believe crazy things doesn't mean you ALL do... (exagerated example, I know...)

Edited by The T - June 06 2009 at 16:05