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Lucent View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2009 at 19:33
Phil Collins is my all time least favourite progressive musician right behind Jordan Rudess.  I'm sorry.

He's a semi decent drummer...but what he did to Genesis was unforgivable (and I thought Genesis were mediocre to begin with.)


Edited by Lucent - April 29 2009 at 19:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2009 at 01:08
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:


Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

He's been my favourite drummer for most of my prog loving years. When my tastes were heavier I would have said Peart, but Collins is more versatile, and plays with greater 'warmth' imo. He is more together than Bruford, and has always had a better drum sound.
You know, as much as I don't care for the pop direction that Phil and the others were responsible for taking Genesis into, I still like him as a drummer and a vocalist.  Early Brand X kind of makes up for it all.


Absolutely. I like his vocals too. Even in their 'pop' phase, they would sometimes pull something of worth out of the bag, but as you say, his work with Brand X, should lay to rest any doubts anyone ever had, as to his musical skills.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2009 at 02:38
Originally posted by sleeper sleeper wrote:

One of my favourite drummers. His work with Brand X is hugely impressive as well.
Indeed.  In Armando Gallo's "old" book on Genesis ("I Know What I Like"), Phil is quoted as saying that his stint with Brand X really allowed him to express himself percussively, whereas he felt that his role on Genesis was more constraining.  Having said that, we all need to remember the wonderful jazz cum rock improvisations forever emblazened on "Fountain of Salmacis."  For Collins on early Genesis, I feel that is one of his shining moments...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2009 at 03:49
Let's raise a glass to Phil. What a great musicianThumbs UpThumbs Up much lauded and often unfairly vilified and yet he is not even listed on PAWink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2009 at 04:37
Originally posted by prog4evr prog4evr wrote:

Originally posted by sleeper sleeper wrote:

One of my favourite drummers. His work with Brand X is hugely impressive as well.

Indeed.  In Armando Gallo's "old" book on Genesis ("I Know What I Like"), Phil is quoted as saying that his stint with Brand X really allowed him to express himself percussively, whereas he felt that his role on Genesis was more constraining.  Having said that, we all need to remember the wonderful jazz cum rock improvisations forever emblazened on "Fountain of Salmacis."  For Collins on early Genesis, I feel that is one of his shining moments...


as well as...

Firth of Fifth (espeically Seconds Out)
Cinema Show (Especially Seconds Out)
Los Endos
In that Quiet Earth
In the Cage
Dukes Travels
Down & Out
Burning Rope
Suppers Ready (9/8)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2009 at 06:38
I'm a drummer myself (among other things) and I am undeniably influenced by his drumming with Gabriel-era Genesis.  Listening back to rehearsal tapes, I've heard myself borrowing things (Embarrassed).  His drumming was, and remains, some of the most fascinating to listen to for me - right there with Bruford, Palmer, Bonham. 

And I believe that that is why so many of us have sh*t-listed him.  He went from being so admirable while he had a role to play and was young, to being a total and utter choade.  If he had just become banal like so many others, well then, we'd have been grateful, saying, "Thanks for the memories."  But he became a monster instead, a traitor in a sense, no longer out for art.  Disney head-mic jerk Angry

Calming down...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2009 at 07:01
I still don't understand why Phil generates so much anger in people.  With his solo career, it's his music, his career and he can do with it what he wants.  The idea that Phil owes us anything is completely ridiculous.  Of course, if we don't like his music, we don't have to buy it.  But he has no obligation to appease the fans of older Genesis, if that is not the road he wants to take.  And if all he is concerned about is making a lot of cash, well that's his choice.  He owes us nothing.  As for Genesis, I don't think that Tony would have allowed anything to occur with that band that he did not want to happen.  Phil was only one of three members, and Mike and Tony had to go along with it.  And just as before, if they chose to do pop music, it's THEIR music, not ours.  They can do what they like and don't owe us anything.  Be thankful for the music that they gave us that you do enjoy and stop complaining about their stuff you don't enjoy.  The fact that they have moved on from that type of music (although I would argue they haven't completely moved away from it) doesn't make Collins or anyone else in the band a monster or a traitor or a jerk.  They are artists, and as such should have complete control over the direction their art takes.  Ok.  Off-topic counter-rant over.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2009 at 12:24
^
That's the best verbal drum solo I have seen. I think even PC would be proud of you DocApprove
 
Personally I think PC's drumming was at his best with TOTT/Second's Out although even Duke showed his might with the sticks
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2009 at 12:43
Originally posted by American Khatru American Khatru wrote:

I'm a drummer myself (among other things) and I am undeniably influenced by his drumming with Gabriel-era Genesis.  Listening back to rehearsal tapes, I've heard myself borrowing things (Embarrassed).  His drumming was, and remains, some of the most fascinating to listen to for me - right there with Bruford, Palmer, Bonham. 

And I believe that that is why so many of us have sh*t-listed him.  He went from being so admirable while he had a role to play and was young, to being a total and utter choade.  If he had just become banal like so many others, well then, we'd have been grateful, saying, "Thanks for the memories."  But he became a monster instead, a traitor in a sense, no longer out for art.  Disney head-mic jerk Angry

Calming down...



I'm curious - would you also vilify Gabriel for doing stuff like that great track from Wall-E. What is wrong with people making an honest living?Confused
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2009 at 16:04
Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

^
That's the best verbal drum solo I have seen. I think even PC would be proud of you DocApprove
 
Personally I think PC's drumming was at his best with TOTT/Second's Out although even Duke showed his might with the sticks
And even on 'we can't dance' one can hear some fine drumming  on "no son of mine" or "fading lights"...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2009 at 16:26
With all the pop and circumstance surrounding the solo works of Collins and even Gabriel, I'm not sure a Genesis reunion would be all that great. There would be very high expectations and I think whatever new material they come up with would pretty commercial and end up being a big disappointment.

But that doesn't mean I won't check it out of course. Any word on that lately?

Edited by marktheshark - April 30 2009 at 16:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2009 at 16:45
  
With his bandmates of Brand X. Excellent album
     
Excellent album, shame on progarchives for not listing it yet in its database
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2009 at 09:36
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

I still don't understand why Phil generates so much anger in people.  With his solo career, it's his music, his career and he can do with it what he wants.  The idea that Phil owes us anything is completely ridiculous.  Of course, if we don't like his music, we don't have to buy it.  But he has no obligation to appease the fans of older Genesis, if that is not the road he wants to take.  And if all he is concerned about is making a lot of cash, well that's his choice.  He owes us nothing.  As for Genesis, I don't think that Tony would have allowed anything to occur with that band that he did not want to happen.  Phil was only one of three members, and Mike and Tony had to go along with it.  And just as before, if they chose to do pop music, it's THEIR music, not ours.  They can do what they like and don't owe us anything.  Be thankful for the music that they gave us that you do enjoy and stop complaining about their stuff you don't enjoy.  The fact that they have moved on from that type of music (although I would argue they haven't completely moved away from it) doesn't make Collins or anyone else in the band a monster or a traitor or a jerk.  They are artists, and as such should have complete control over the direction their art takes.  Ok.  Off-topic counter-rant over.


Amen to that and thanks for saving me the trouble of typing it all. I agree with everything you said.

I can't stand all this bollox about "Phil destroying Genesis" and all that rubbish. Apart from anything else, this presumes that Tony Banks just rolled over and let Phil take control which is total nonsense.

Why can't all the Phil haters just listen up to Wind and Wuthering and be monumentally grateful for the music they gave us up until then and just accept that after that they grew up a bit and matured and just wanted to change their sound.

Every other prog band stream-lined their sound in the late 70s (Camel, Rush, Yes, etc, etc) but Genesis happened to be a lot better at producing commercial music. If you don't like it, don't listen.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2009 at 09:38
Originally posted by Lucent Lucent wrote:

Phil Collins is my all time least favourite progressive musician right behind Jordan Rudess.  I'm sorry.

He's a semi decent drummer...but what he did to Genesis was unforgivable (and I thought Genesis were mediocre to begin with.)


This is nonsense. See previous comments.

"Semi decent drummer" Disapprove






Edited by Nov - May 02 2009 at 09:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2009 at 09:48
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

I still don't understand why Phil generates so much anger in people.  With his solo career, it's his music, his career and he can do with it what he wants.  The idea that Phil owes us anything is completely ridiculous.  Of course, if we don't like his music, we don't have to buy it.  But he has no obligation to appease the fans of older Genesis, if that is not the road he wants to take.  And if all he is concerned about is making a lot of cash, well that's his choice.  He owes us nothing.  As for Genesis, I don't think that Tony would have allowed anything to occur with that band that he did not want to happen.  Phil was only one of three members, and Mike and Tony had to go along with it.  And just as before, if they chose to do pop music, it's THEIR music, not ours.  They can do what they like and don't owe us anything.  Be thankful for the music that they gave us that you do enjoy and stop complaining about their stuff you don't enjoy.  The fact that they have moved on from that type of music (although I would argue they haven't completely moved away from it) doesn't make Collins or anyone else in the band a monster or a traitor or a jerk.  They are artists, and as such should have complete control over the direction their art takes.  Ok.  Off-topic counter-rant over.
 
 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2009 at 09:54
The only complain I might have  is that Phil should of continued making albums that he would of grow as a drummer like Bruford or Pip Pyle, but chose not to. However, that is his life and he does whatever he f**ks want.

Edited by darksideof - May 02 2009 at 09:56
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2009 at 10:01
Originally posted by Nov Nov wrote:



Amen to that and thanks for saving me the trouble of typing it all. I agree with everything you said.

I can't stand all this bollox about "Phil destroying Genesis" and all that rubbish. Apart from anything else, this presumes that Tony Banks just rolled over and let Phil take control which is total nonsense.

Why can't all the Phil haters just listen up to Wind and Wuthering and be monumentally grateful for the music they gave us up until then and just accept that after that they grew up a bit and matured and just wanted to change their sound.

Every other prog band stream-lined their sound in the late 70s (Camel, Rush, Yes, etc, etc) but Genesis happened to be a lot better at producing commercial music. If you don't like it, don't listen.


 
It's true Phil Collins doesn't owe us a thing, but we don't owe him anything either, if you want to thank him for his monumental music, go on, i already thanked the band  when paying for several copies and upgrades of the albums I cared for, byt Phil?......He was just the drummer in the IMO best band ever, a damn good one, but nothing more.
 
We are free to give our opinions, I do believe he was the leader of the horrendous change in Genesis, because Tony was always the guy behind the keys and behind a leader, first was Gabriel and then Phil, IMO Tony is a follower more than a band leader and Mike, much less.
 
If you don't like the bad opinions towards Phil Collins...DON'T READ THEM, but never try to tell us what to say and what to silence.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 02 2009 at 10:03
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2009 at 10:47
Originally posted by Nov Nov wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

I still don't understand why Phil generates so much anger in people.  With his solo career, it's his music, his career and he can do with it what he wants.  The idea that Phil owes us anything is completely ridiculous.  Of course, if we don't like his music, we don't have to buy it.  But he has no obligation to appease the fans of older Genesis, if that is not the road he wants to take.  And if all he is concerned about is making a lot of cash, well that's his choice.  He owes us nothing.  As for Genesis, I don't think that Tony would have allowed anything to occur with that band that he did not want to happen.  Phil was only one of three members, and Mike and Tony had to go along with it.  And just as before, if they chose to do pop music, it's THEIR music, not ours.  They can do what they like and don't owe us anything.  Be thankful for the music that they gave us that you do enjoy and stop complaining about their stuff you don't enjoy.  The fact that they have moved on from that type of music (although I would argue they haven't completely moved away from it) doesn't make Collins or anyone else in the band a monster or a traitor or a jerk.  They are artists, and as such should have complete control over the direction their art takes.  Ok.  Off-topic counter-rant over.


Amen to that and thanks for saving me the trouble of typing it all. I agree with everything you said.

I can't stand all this bollox about "Phil destroying Genesis" and all that rubbish. Apart from anything else, this presumes that Tony Banks just rolled over and let Phil take control which is total nonsense.

Why can't all the Phil haters just listen up to Wind and Wuthering and be monumentally grateful for the music they gave us up until then and just accept that after that they grew up a bit and matured and just wanted to change their sound.

Every other prog band stream-lined their sound in the late 70s (Camel, Rush, Yes, etc, etc) but Genesis happened to be a lot better at producing commercial music. If you don't like it, don't listen.




Completely agree with both posts. I think all the Phil bashing is ridiculous. Genesis changed their sound in the 80's just like many other 70's bands, it just happened that they became very popular with it, and of course Phil is not the only responsible for that as Tony and Mike wanted the same for the band. And I don't think any of those bands "sold out" or they did it for purely commercial reasons, you may like it or not, but they just did what they feel they wanted to do at that time, it's not that they "betrayed us" cos they don't owe us anything, artists make the music they want for whoever wants to listen to it. Even Peter Gabriel was doing more accesible music in his solo career in the same way as Genesis.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2009 at 15:42
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

I do believe he was the leader of the horrendous change in Genesis, because Tony was always the guy behind the keys and behind a leader


Anyone who really understands the personalities within Genesis (and this has come from the guys themselves) will tell you that Tony was always the main driving force within Genesis. You could have had a Genesis without any of them except Tony Banks. No less a person than Tony Smith has said this.

All that gradually happened after Steve Hackett left was that the remaining three worked towards having 33.3% input into all the studio albums.

What I am trying to say is that if you don't like Genesis after 1977 it's as much to do with Tony and Mike as it is Phil.

Tony wrote the chord sequence to "Hold On My Heart" for crying out loud.

I rest my case Wink



 


Edited by Nov - May 02 2009 at 15:45
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2009 at 16:00
Originally posted by Nov Nov wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

I do believe he was the leader of the horrendous change in Genesis, because Tony was always the guy behind the keys and behind a leader


Anyone who really understands the personalities within Genesis (and this has come from the guys themselves) will tell you that Tony was always the main driving force within Genesis. You could have had a Genesis without any of them except Tony Banks. No less a person than Tony Smith has said this.
 
Anybody who has read every piece of literature and seen every video story availlable, will notice that Tony was a composer, but never the face or leader of the band, first Gabriel and later Collins took the lead of the band and the rest foillowed them.
 
I'll give you an example, Tony wanted to sunthezize the brass sections in ABACAB, but Collins made an issue aout the Earth Wind & Fire Phoenix Horns, Tony said NO WAY..........Who Won?.....Collins
 
In Genesis a history Collins says literally "I OULD NEVER ALLOW PETER TO COME BACK", not the band, not Genesis, he said I

All that gradually happened after Steve Hackett left was that the remaining three worked towards having 33.3% input into all the studio albums.
 
The big difference is that late Genesis sounds like solo Collins stuff, but not remotely as Mike or Tony's solo stuff, so there's your answer.

What I am trying to say is that if you don't like Genesis after 1977 it's as much to do with Tony and Mike as it is Phil.
 
Yes, they have also responsability, that's undeniable, but without Collins, the dramatic change would had never happened, a prove is that CAS without Collins is closer to prog than anything they did after Duke, it was terrible IMO, but very proggy.

Tony wrote the chord sequence to "Hold On My Heart" for crying out loud.

I rest my case Wink
 
Tony wrote always, that doesn't mean he decided anything.

Iván









Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 02 2009 at 16:03
            
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