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BaldFriede View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2009 at 12:11
Jean's post reminds me of the old zen koan "Who is the Master who makes the grass green"? The answer, of course, is YOU.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2009 at 19:32
Atheist bus?  I'd rather have The Omnibus:

"Climb up here beside me
We can ride and find a friend unfound
Put your foot upon the laughing gas
And drive your grin around
Omnibus, take all of us
All of us, take Omnibus
Ain't nothing in the world like a white skinned girl
Make your Union Jack and make your flag unfurl
You can't say you've ridden
'Till you've given up your heart and seat
Man that lady clippie rip your ticket
Make your trip complete
Omnibus, take all of us
All of us, take Omnibus
Ain't nothing in the world like a black skinned girl
Make your shakespeare hard and make your oyster pearl
Don't let horses pass you by
Take a run and leap on
Pull the blinkers from your eyes
Before big bus has gone
We'll be stopping off
In every shop until you find that mate..." XTC

Edited by Slartibartfast - March 09 2009 at 06:23
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2009 at 21:06
OK, let's clear some things up.  Being an atheist is believing their is no god.  Being an agnostic is asserting that the truth cannot be known for certain.  The two are obviously not mutually exclusive.  If you want to play the label game, I would be an agnostic atheist.  I realize that there could be a god, which makes me agnostic, but my opinion is that there isn't, making me atheist.  I might say "There is no god," but it's pretty much implied that this is my opinion and I am in no way presenting it as total fact.  Also, yes, as a belief atheism requires faith, but I think that my faith in the non-existence of a god is more reasonable than my previous faith in Christianity.  One was based on nothing more than indoctrination, popularity, and a heavily edited book.  The other is based on results from very deep critical thinking, complete lack of credible evidence, deep flaws in the aforementioned book, and logic in general.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2009 at 01:28
Originally posted by Sasquamo Sasquamo wrote:

OK, let's clear some things up.  Being an atheist is believing their is no god.  Being an agnostic is asserting that the truth cannot be known for certain.  The two are obviously not mutually exclusive.  If you want to play the label game, I would be an agnostic atheist.  I realize that there could be a god, which makes me agnostic, but my opinion is that there isn't, making me atheist.  I might say "There is no god," but it's pretty much implied that this is my opinion and I am in no way presenting it as total fact.  Also, yes, as a belief atheism requires faith, but I think that my faith in the non-existence of a god is more reasonable than my previous faith in Christianity.  One was based on nothing more than indoctrination, popularity, and a heavily edited book.  The other is based on results from very deep critical thinking, complete lack of credible evidence, deep flaws in the aforementioned book, and logic in general.

Sorry, but being an agnostic and being an atheist ARE mutually exclusive. If you believe there is no God then you can't be unsure about it at the same time. The agnostic says "it can not be decided", the atheist made the decision.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2009 at 03:00
I think, though you and Ivan will probably disagree, that at this point, there are at least 2 interpretations of the Atheist-Agnostic relationship that it makes discussions incredibly tedious and nit-picky. I can tell from being in debates (such as this one).

I believe that what Sasquamo said about atheism and agnosticism is one of these interpretations.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2009 at 04:37
This is why I just don't bother with a label for myself.  It is just open to too much misinterpretation.

Edited by James - March 08 2009 at 20:07
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Petrovsk Mizinski View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2009 at 04:47
Just because I can, I shall repeat, I'm an atheistSmile

Seriously though, what happened to this topic being about the bus campaign?Confused
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2009 at 11:42
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by Sasquamo Sasquamo wrote:

OK, let's clear some things up.  Being an atheist is believing their is no god.  Being an agnostic is asserting that the truth cannot be known for certain.  The two are obviously not mutually exclusive.  If you want to play the label game, I would be an agnostic atheist.  I realize that there could be a god, which makes me agnostic, but my opinion is that there isn't, making me atheist.  I might say "There is no god," but it's pretty much implied that this is my opinion and I am in no way presenting it as total fact.  Also, yes, as a belief atheism requires faith, but I think that my faith in the non-existence of a god is more reasonable than my previous faith in Christianity.  One was based on nothing more than indoctrination, popularity, and a heavily edited book.  The other is based on results from very deep critical thinking, complete lack of credible evidence, deep flaws in the aforementioned book, and logic in general.

Sorry, but being an agnostic and being an atheist ARE mutually exclusive. If you believe there is no God then you can't be unsure about it at the same time. The agnostic says "it can not be decided", the atheist made the decision.


I don't see agnostic as a synonym for completely 50/50, undecided.  Any sane person is agnostic, since they realize that when you come down to it, we'll never know for sure.  But that shouldn't stop people from having opinions.  Atheism and religion are both opinions or guesses to an unsolvable question.  So I say "it cannot be decided, but I think there is no god"

Do you realize that by your definition of agnosticism, a devout, practicing Christian that admits that they're not 100% sure there is a god is agnostic?  By that definition, the majority of people are solely agnostic.


Edited by Sasquamo - March 08 2009 at 12:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2009 at 16:31
Originally posted by HughesJB4 HughesJB4 wrote:

Just because I can, I shall repeat, I'm an atheistSmile

Seriously though, what happened to this topic being about the bus campaign?Confused


I was thinking the same thing. But, well, with this kind of topic, the things tend to go out of hands rather quickly.
And we can consider ourselves lucky not to have seen anyone getting to the Godwin point.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2009 at 17:17
Back to the topic about the bus campaign, I find this idea somewhat ''ridiculous'' and maybe offending to some people. I would say the same if a bus wrote on it : ''We are sure there is a God, so believe in Him''.

As someone wrote before in here, keep your religious (or non-religious) views at home.
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BaldFriede View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2009 at 21:26
Originally posted by Sasquamo Sasquamo wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by Sasquamo Sasquamo wrote:

OK, let's clear some things up.  Being an atheist is believing their is no god.  Being an agnostic is asserting that the truth cannot be known for certain.  The two are obviously not mutually exclusive.  If you want to play the label game, I would be an agnostic atheist.  I realize that there could be a god, which makes me agnostic, but my opinion is that there isn't, making me atheist.  I might say "There is no god," but it's pretty much implied that this is my opinion and I am in no way presenting it as total fact.  Also, yes, as a belief atheism requires faith, but I think that my faith in the non-existence of a god is more reasonable than my previous faith in Christianity.  One was based on nothing more than indoctrination, popularity, and a heavily edited book.  The other is based on results from very deep critical thinking, complete lack of credible evidence, deep flaws in the aforementioned book, and logic in general.

Sorry, but being an agnostic and being an atheist ARE mutually exclusive. If you believe there is no God then you can't be unsure about it at the same time. The agnostic says "it can not be decided", the atheist made the decision.


I don't see agnostic as a synonym for completely 50/50, undecided.  Any sane person is agnostic, since they realize that when you come down to it, we'll never know for sure.  But that shouldn't stop people from having opinions.  Atheism and religion are both opinions or guesses to an unsolvable question.  So I say "it cannot be decided, but I think there is no god"

Do you realize that by your definition of agnosticism, a devout, practicing Christian that admits that they're not 100% sure there is a god is agnostic?  By that definition, the majority of people are solely agnostic.

Sorry, but you are very wrong there. Why should everyy sane person be an agnostic? A believer is a believer, and that means 100% and not some frilly 70% or the likes. Just as well as an atheist is 100% sure. I know for sure, I can, at least in my opinion, even prove why there has to be a deity. Mark that my concept of "God", however, is not the same concept as many otherfs have. Not only do I truly and fully believe in  God, I think every sane person does. What many people reject is not God as "he" (I don't like that pronoun) really is, it is a certain image they made of him. And they are in my opinion perfectly right to reject that.certain image, which Jean and I call "God the wand waver". It is that image which people reject when they say "I am an atheist", nothing else. But that has nothing to do with the true nature of God. I firmly believe it is totally impossible for anyone to reject God once they understand what they are talking about. What a little God would "God the wand waver" be!
Anyone who rejects or denies God should for a moment think: "What is it I am actually denying?" I am absolutely sure that for many it is nothing but the "wand waver" image.
Others will deny God because he is supposed to be benevolent, and they simply point at all the evil in the world.and say "a God who is really benevolent would not allow that". How very short-sighted though! How would he be supposed to do that? God can't do the logically impossible. To make sure no evil exists God would have to take away man's free will in the first place, and that, as logician Raymond Smullyan brilliantly points out in his essay "Is God a Taopist"?, is totally impossible, at least currently.

I would like to add a poem by German poet Chrsitian Morgenstern, translated by me.

The Symbol of Man

"Show me", a demon spake to me,
"Show me the symbol of man,
And I will let you go".
Thereupon I, pulling my
Black boot from my toes,
Spake: "This, demon, is man's
Gruesome symbol: a foot of
Rough leather, no longer nature
And yet not become spirit yet.
A wandering form from beast foot
To Mercury's winged sole".
As an image of laughter
I stood there, a new saint,
Yet the demon, indeterminably
Sighing, bowed down and wrote
With his finger on the ground.

As long as we are this "wandering form" there will not be a better world. Or, to quote Peter Hammill:
"Human we can all be,
But humanity we must rise above.
In the name of all hope and faith and love".

Perhaps what I said here is a big riddle for most of you, and some will think this is some pointless ranting and raving; I don't care. I will end with a little poem of my own

Life

I tried in vain
And tried again
And tried with pain.
I started crying,
Then I stopped trying.
Now I am dying.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2009 at 21:56
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:


A believer is a believer, and that means 100% and not some frilly 70% or the likes.


What? I can't see why believing, as in having faith has to be a 100%. I sure hope most believers have their moments where they have their uncertainties. Believing is not the same as knowing. 
Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2009 at 00:24
Originally posted by Rocktopus Rocktopus wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:


A believer is a believer, and that means 100% and not some frilly 70% or the likes.


What? I can't see why believing, as in having faith has to be a 100%. I sure hope most believers have their moments where they have their uncertainties. Believing is not the same as knowing. 

Sorry, Rocktopus, but a 70% belief simply is NOT belief; it is merely an assumption then. The verb "to believe" has been watered down by everyday use, but let us have a look at the dictionary:
" to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so. "
As soon as it is down to 70% or something you are certainly no longer confident; on the contrary, you have doubts. Mark that people who are believers may have moments of doubt (even Jesus had his moment of doubt), but in those moments they do NOT believe. When one believes it is wholeheartedly. Example: Suppose you have a son, and he asks you to give him $20, and you tell him "my purse is lying on the kitchen table; take $20 out of it". Now do you believe your son will take only $20? Then you won't check. As soon as you check you don't believe, won't you agree? Even if you only check "just to be sure" you have doubts, and doubting is not believing.
Mark that you don't need proof to believe, as is noted in the definition. When you have proof there is actually no need to believe, because then you KNOW.





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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2009 at 04:28
Regardless of whether you believe in God or not, religion is one of the factors that stops people giving up their consciences and just doing anything or anyone they want, human nature being what it is. Without commandments: Pure anachy and the survival of the strongest (and definitively NOT the fittest).
 
The problem is that Christian religion, and especially the Catholic branch rely heavily on conveying enormous amounts of unnecessary guilt. This we could all do without, I believe.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2009 at 05:35
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by Rocktopus Rocktopus wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:


A believer is a believer, and that means 100% and not some frilly 70% or the likes.


What? I can't see why believing, as in having faith has to be a 100%. I sure hope most believers have their moments where they have their uncertainties. Believing is not the same as knowing. 

Sorry, Rocktopus, but a 70% belief simply is NOT belief; it is merely an assumption then. The verb "to believe" has been watered down by everyday use, but let us have a look at the dictionary:
" to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so. "
As soon as it is down to 70% or something you are certainly no longer confident; on the contrary, you have doubts. Mark that people who are believers may have moments of doubt (even Jesus had his moment of doubt), but in those moments they do NOT believe. When one believes it is wholeheartedly. Example: Suppose you have a son, and he asks you to give him $20, and you tell him "my purse is lying on the kitchen table; take $20 out of it". Now do you believe your son will take only $20? Then you won't check. As soon as you check you don't believe, won't you agree? Even if you only check "just to be sure" you have doubts, and doubting is not believing.
Mark that you don't need proof to believe, as is noted in the definition. When you have proof there is actually no need to believe, because then you KNOW.


You can't compare with Jesus. His doubts wasn't about God's actual existence. How is believing a 100% term, anyway? Sounds as absurd as "if you doubt something, you must doubt it a 100%". Believing in something opens for doubts no matter what your dictionary says, knowing does not.

You can say: I believe nobody/somebody will drop an atomic bomb, I believe I'm a good person, I believe my wallet is in my bag (and add: but I'm not certain). If you're wrong in one, two all all those things, you still believed it, and used the term correctly. 

Btw: In norwegian (and scandinavian) we use a term that's somewhere inbetween "I think" and "I believe", when talking about faith. It can't be translated directly, though.
Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2009 at 05:38
So moving along to the Atheist bus campaign topic................., I remember reading on some forum there was some really hot chick or something involved in the ad or something, yet I never saw a picture of herConfused
Someone link me to the picture of the hotness please.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2009 at 05:44
Do you mean this person?


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2009 at 05:45
Oh damn it, she isn't anywhere near as good looking as I hoped:(
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2009 at 05:51
I propose Ashley Tisdale as the new Atheist Bus Campaign chick instead
Ashley TisdaleHeart
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2009 at 06:22
Originally posted by npjnpj npjnpj wrote:

Regardless of whether you believe in God or not, religion is one of the factors that stops people giving up their consciences and just doing anything or anyone they want, human nature being what it is. Without commandments: Pure anachy and the survival of the strongest (and definitively NOT the fittest).
 
The problem is that Christian religion, and especially the Catholic branch rely heavily on conveying enormous amounts of unnecessary guilt. This we could all do without, I believe.

You can have laws against doing bad things to one another without religion. 

Then there's that whole religious morality thing in which many religions believe that those who don't believe what you do are evil and must be destroyed.  You could make the case that religion is just enabling some people to do what you would say is human nature.  Then there's that whole thing about those who hold religious power sometimes being complete hypocrites and doing bad things anyway, using that power over others for bad purposes.  I could go on.  While I acknowledge that religion has sometimes been a force for good you must acknowledge that also historically it has sometimes been guilty (sorry about that) of great evil, inquisitions, burning "witches", slaughter of non-believers when Spanish came to the Americas, etc.

I think you might find this interesting, but then again, maybe not:

Sorry another XTC lyric excerpt to annoy some people:

"Dear god,
Hope you got the letter,
And I pray you can make it better down here.
I dont mean a big reduction in the price of beer,
But all the people that you made in your image,
See them starving on their feet,
cause they dont get enough to eat

...

Dear god,
Sorry to disturb you,
But I feel that I should be heard loud and clear.
We all need a big reduction in amount of tears,
And all the people that you made in your image,
See them fighting in the street,
cause they cant make opinions meet,
About god,..."




Edited by Slartibartfast - March 09 2009 at 06:26
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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