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Points: 16310 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2008 at 00:23
Just seems like Paulson's looking out for his and his friends interests first than the public. I mean this guy was a former Goldman Sachs guy.
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2008 at 12:54
Originally posted by BroSpence BroSpence wrote:

Isn't it interesting that the Fed. Reserve was partially created to help prevent our banks from failing and all that, then the great depression happened a few years later.


Anyways, I just sent a bunch of Emails to representatives.


You might be interested in this:
http://www.gata.org/node/6469

"William Greider: The Fed is the problem, not the solution

Submitted by cpowell on Mon, 2008-08-04 18:36. Section: Daily Dispatches

Economic Free-Fall?

By William Greider
The Nation magazine, New York
Wednesday, July 30, 2008

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080818/greider

Washington can act with breathtaking urgency when the right people want something done. In this case, the people are Wall Street's titans, who are scared witless at the prospect of their historic implosion. Congress quickly agreed to enact a gargantuan bailout, with more to come, to calm the anxieties and halt the deflation of Wall Street giants. Put aside partisan bickering, no time for hearings, no need to think through the deeper implications. We haven't seen "bipartisan cooperation" like this since Washington decided to invade Iraq.

In their haste to do anything the financial guys seem to want, Congress and the lame-duck President are, I fear, sowing far more profound troubles for the country. First, while throwing our money at Wall Street, government is neglecting the grave risk of a deeper catastrophe for the real economy of producers and consumers. Second, Washington's selective generosity for influential financial losers is deforming democracy and opening the path to an awesomely powerful corporate state. Third, the rescue has not succeeded, not yet. Banking faces huge losses ahead, and informed insiders assume a far larger federal bailout will be needed -- after the election. No one wants to upset voters by talking about it now. The next President, once in office, can break the bad news..."

and this:

"

Secrets of the Temple: How the Federal Reserve Runs the Country (Paperback)

by William Greider (Author) "In the American system, citizens were taught that the transfer of political power accompanied elections, formal events when citizens made orderly choices about who shall..." (more)"

It's a book that's been out for a while and really really long read.  I'm not sure if I ever finished it.




Edited by Slartibartfast - September 23 2008 at 12:56
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2008 at 13:44
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:



You might be interested in this:
http://www.gata.org/node/6469

"William Greider: The Fed is the problem, not the solution

Submitted by cpowell on Mon, 2008-08-04 18:36. Section: Daily Dispatches

Economic Free-Fall?

By William Greider
The Nation magazine, New York
Wednesday, July 30, 2008




Very good article, agreed with a lot of the suggestions.
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2008 at 14:01
Hey Slart since you're the expert in such things, I'd love to see some good spoofs on "Don't worry honey, we're with AIG" Wink
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Points: 19236 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2008 at 15:07
Where are we to stop at these bailouts? I think that any executive compensation should be taken off of the table as well. When was the last time that anyone walked into a Bankruptcy hearing to have the judge say that your debts are wiped out and by the way here's a couple million dollars for a job well done? Never. If these companies are bailed out the the execs at the top should get nothing. 
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2008 at 15:10
Originally posted by crimhead crimhead wrote:

Where are we to stop at these bailouts? I think that any executive compensation should be taken off of the table as well. When was the last time that anyone walked into a Bankruptcy hearing to have the judge say that your debts are wiped out and by the way here's a couple million dollars for a job well done? Never. If these companies are bailed out the the execs at the top should get nothing. 


agree completely!  most of them should consider themselves lucky to avoid a prison sentence!
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2008 at 15:19
Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

Hey Slart since you're the expert in such things, I'd love to see some good spoofs on "Don't worry honey, we're with AIG" Wink


Sorry, I'm a bit lazy and only post stuff I run in to or can dig up easily.  I'm sure some AIG thingys will come up soon...

And by the way, I almost got hit by a single engine Piper, can't you see I've got better things to do than that (?) and anyways, I really need to get back to work. 

http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=7494985&version=11&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1
A%20small%20plane%20crashed%20in%20a%20DeKalb%20County%20neighborhood%20Tuesday%20afternoon.%20
A small plane crashed in a DeKalb County neighborhood Tuesday afternoon.
MORE INFO
RAW VIDEO: Small Plane Crashes In DeKalb Neighborhood






Edited by Slartibartfast - September 23 2008 at 15:26
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 7003 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2008 at 16:49
Originally posted by crimhead crimhead wrote:

Where are we to stop at these bailouts? I think that any executive compensation should be taken off of the table as well. When was the last time that anyone walked into a Bankruptcy hearing to have the judge say that your debts are wiped out and by the way here's a couple million dollars for a job well done? Never. If these companies are bailed out the the execs at the top should get nothing. 
 
They get paid for their expertise. If you don't give them bonuses, they'll take that valuable expertise somewhere else Confused.
 
On second thoughts, although I was being heavily sarcastic there, that's probably exactly what would happen. 'You were part of the team that steered Lehman's into bankruptcy and the economy of the nation towards a depression? We'll double your salary and shampoo your stair carpets for you while we're at it.'
'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'

Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom


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Points: 12288 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2008 at 18:42
We heard here that a bunch of Lehman Brothers executives are demanding their benefits for the succesful operations they held in the past couple of years... Confused
Guigo

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Points: 19236 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2008 at 19:15
Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

Originally posted by crimhead crimhead wrote:

Where are we to stop at these bailouts? I think that any executive compensation should be taken off of the table as well. When was the last time that anyone walked into a Bankruptcy hearing to have the judge say that your debts are wiped out and by the way here's a couple million dollars for a job well done? Never. If these companies are bailed out the the execs at the top should get nothing. 


agree completely!  most of them should consider themselves lucky to avoid a prison sentence!
 
The only other way that we the people can get back at them is to sue the Board of Directors. But then again they got to have their money squirelled away somewhere that we cannot get at.
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Points: 66264 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2008 at 23:05
Breaking news on the local news tonight the FBI is beginning a fraud investigation investigating individuals involved with Lehman Brothers, Fannie Mae, and other failed mortgage institutions.  Here's hoping that some well deserving individuals take the fall for it.
 
Also, most likely with bankruptcy court, what will happen is bankruptcy attorneys and turnaround experts will be charged with turning around these businesses.  These people will be the ones to make big dollars from this.  Although, I wouldn't be surprised if former executives will go away with their golden parachutes.
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Points: 66264 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2008 at 23:09
They also said that the bailout amounts to $10,000 per household.  Personally, instead of giving $700 billion to Wall Street I would prefer that they write me a check for $10,000.  I suspect I could do some pretty good damage with $10,000.
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Points: 2614 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2008 at 01:09

Per person in the US I think its something around $2333. Which isn't much if you're buying a car, however that check isn't going to pay your own bills. Its going to someone who f***ed up.

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:



Originally posted by BroSpence BroSpence wrote:

Isn't it interesting that the Fed. Reserve was partially created to help prevent our banks from failing and all that, then the great depression happened a few years later.


Anyways, I just sent a bunch of Emails to representatives.
You might be interested in this:http://www.gata.org/node/6469<h1>"William Greider: The Fed is the problem, not the solution</h1>
       
                        <!-- begin -->
            <span>Submitted by cpowell on Mon, 2008-08-04 18:36.</span><span> Section: Daily Dispatches</span>    

Economic Free-Fall?


By William Greider
The Nation magazine, New York
Wednesday, July 30, 2008


http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080818/greider


Washington can act with breathtaking urgency when the right people
want something done. In this case, the people are Wall Street's titans,
who are scared witless at the prospect of their historic implosion.
Congress quickly agreed to enact a gargantuan bailout, with more to
come, to calm the anxieties and halt the deflation of Wall Street
giants. Put aside partisan bickering, no time for hearings, no need to
think through the deeper implications. We haven't seen "bipartisan
cooperation" like this since Washington decided to invade Iraq.


In their haste to do anything the financial guys seem to want,
Congress and the lame-duck President are, I fear, sowing far more
profound troubles for the country. First, while throwing our money at
Wall Street, government is neglecting the grave risk of a deeper
catastrophe for the real economy of producers and consumers. Second,
Washington's selective generosity for influential financial losers is
deforming democracy and opening the path to an awesomely powerful
corporate state. Third, the rescue has not succeeded, not yet. Banking
faces huge losses ahead, and informed insiders assume a far larger
federal bailout will be needed -- after the election. No one wants to
upset voters by talking about it now. The next President, once in
office, can break the bad news..."

and this:

"

<h1><span id="btAsinTitle" style="">Secrets of the Temple: How the Federal Reserve Runs the Country (Paperback)</span></h1>







<span>

by William Greider (Author)

<span>
"In the American system, citizens were taught that the transfer of
political power accompanied elections, formal events when citizens made
orderly choices about who shall..." (more)"</span></span>It's a book that's been out for a while and really really long read.  I'm not sure if I ever finished it.



Both are quite interesting. Thank you. I assume you are aware of the conspiracy theories that are related to the Fed as well?
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2008 at 07:36
Originally posted by BroSpence BroSpence wrote:


Per person in the US I think its something around $2333. Which isn't much if you're buying a car, however that check isn't going to pay your own bills. Its going to someone who f***ed up.

Both are quite interesting. Thank you. I assume you are aware of the conspiracy theories that are related to the Fed as well?

Not too well. LOL




Edited by Slartibartfast - September 24 2008 at 07:41
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 3596 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2008 at 15:12
I'm still saying give it directly to the American Public on a declining income curve. But use about 1 billion to go after the execs, CEOs, and investment denizens who sold investors a bill of goods (guaranteed, no risk); along with re-stating the books to show the REAL profit; then re-claiming any phony performance bonuses, along with any dividends paid out on non-existent profits.
And as far as this last little bit hurting the investors, well, there is supposed to be a correlation between risk & return. SO if you took a risk to hopefully get a higher return, should you not be open to the downside ? Oh, wait, that would wreck the American economy, by penalizing those that had the money to invest. No mention need be made to those who don't have the means to invest and did not profit from the Ponzi scheme, but will shoulder their share of the burden for the bailout.
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2008 at 15:24
Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:

I'm still saying give it directly to the American Public


Give what?  I don't understand what you're talking about. 
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2008 at 16:05
Give it a moment, we're talking about the bail out funds here.  If you put the funds in the pockets of the wealthy people responsible for this mess, you'll not only reward them for bad behavior and poor investment decisions, but you won't be putting money in the pockets of those who would use it most to benefit the economy: people who've seen their wages decline or jobs shipped abroad.  There's always going to be rich folks in any economy and I can even buy into the argument that they are necessary.  Unfortunately they've been allowed to become parasitical and will kill the host if not reigned in.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2008 at 18:56
The bail out funds come from the American public, or rather that we borrow the money and need to pay it back.

No one is happy about the proposed plan, but almost every economist agrees that failure to act and shore up the financial/credit system will hurt so much more - the most pain going to the "little guy" if businesses start failing.

And in the future, you don't need to be so condescending.  I was making a good faith effort for debrewguy to clarify his post.  I assure you I'm not as stupid as you think I am.


Edited by NaturalScience - September 24 2008 at 18:58
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2008 at 19:29
Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

The bail out funds come from the American public, or rather that we borrow the money and need to pay it back.

No one is happy about the proposed plan, but almost every economist agrees that failure to act and shore up the financial/credit system will hurt so much more - the most pain going to the "little guy" if businesses start failing.

And in the future, you don't need to be so condescending.  I was making a good faith effort for debrewguy to clarify his post.  I assure you I'm not as stupid as you think I am.


Sincere apologies if I came across as condescending.  Was not my intent.  OK maybe just a little.  You obviously take this as seriously as I do.  Unfortunately, I feel we sometimes live in the United States of Amnesia.  But, we really do need to look hard before we let them leap.  The consequences of taking rash action can be just as bad doing nothing. 

The consequences of letting them get away with it again (S&L, anyone?) and sticking the common taxpayer with the bill is really unacceptable to me.  The executives will not likely have their unearned takings taken away.  They'll probably be punished with more tax breaks. LOL


Edited by Slartibartfast - September 24 2008 at 19:37
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 3596 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2008 at 20:21
Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

The bail out funds come from the American public, or rather that we borrow the money and need to pay it back.

DB asks - if it comes from them, why shouldn't they get it back right away ?

No one is happy about the proposed plan, but almost every economist agrees that failure to act and shore up the financial/credit system will hurt so much more - the most pain going to the "little guy" if businesses start failing.

DB - many economists work for the financial industry. self-interest, anybody. Plus, the little guy is going to foot the bill, not the financial industry. Given the track history, wouldn't you feel more comfortable giving the money to anyone else BUT the financial industry. Plus, if you give to the general public , their borrowing/credit needs will decline, won't it ? Think of it, poor people paying off credit cards. Lower Middle Class renovating aging homes. Middle class folks paying down debts. All classes likely spending the money given. If the U.S. government believed that $200 per middle class tax-payer was going to prevent the economy going into a recession, then $10000 should really super-charge things.

And in the future, you don't need to be so condescending.  I was making a good faith effort for debrewguy to clarify his post.  I assure you I'm not as stupid as you think I am.


DB - the point is that if you're big enough, you get bailed out time & again. Yet, there was no emergency when the actual home buyers, borrowers, were defaulting on mortgages that no financial expert can defend as being "credit-worthy. Where was the bail-out plan for them ? Oh, they were individuals. Not corporations.
And as this situation seems to happen every 10-20 years (S & L, Long Term Hedge Fund et al), is it possible that bail-outs don't work. Could it be that the government does better by applying socialist policies towards the citizenship rather than the miilionaires ? Bush had Congress tighten bankruptcy laws at the Credit Card companies behest, because it was felt that it was too easy for people to get away with not paying their debts. Where is that logic now ?
And finally - the cliche investment concept - take on higher risk in return for the possibility of a higher gain. If there is no real risk, why the higher return > And if there was really no profit, why wouldn't the resulting dividends, bonuses and other subsequent rewards be taken back. If it is said to be a very complex undertaking, well, hey, here's $700 billion they're ready to spend covering up the mistakes.

It's time to say enough. The top 5% income brackets do not need financial subsidies. Indeed, you could even argue that the top third aren't really needy when it comes to money. So why do they get the biggest breaks ?
Universal Health Care is too expensive. Care to calculate how many years of basic universal health care $700 billion might cover ? Would you believe that this is a better investment in America, than saving Bankers' skin? Wouldn't you know that this could actually contribute more to productivity and economic superiority than corporate welfare schemes that protect MBA Ponzi artists from their  themselves ?
Bu, no, that socialism. Giving to the poor, to those who aren't in the higher income brackets is bad for business.
It is time to say enough. The same old same old didn't work before, and it won't work any better now. So why have the american taxpayer repeatedly keep footing the bill for business' greed ?

WHY ??????
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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