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heyitsthatguy View Drop Down

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Posted: August 09 2008 at 21:30

some people follow religion
some don't

The T

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Posted: August 09 2008 at 21:59

heyitsthatguy wrote:

some people follow religion
some don't

Seldom have I seen so much wisdom

stonebeard View Drop Down

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Posted: August 09 2008 at 22:01

heyitsthatguy wrote:

some people follow religion

Well, somebody's gotta clean up the mess. Wink

My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!

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Posted: August 09 2008 at 22:10

heyitsthatguy wrote:

some don't

Thank GOD!

WinterLight View Drop Down

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Posted: August 09 2008 at 23:51

The T wrote:

You see Wintelight, when you give an opinion instead of picking on mine, I actually agree with you!

Yeah, but there's no fun without conflict... Wink

johnobvious View Drop Down

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Posted: August 10 2008 at 13:54

About a dozen of these Froot Loops were in front of my church in Omaha this morning. Saw a couple of 3-5 year old girls as well there with their kook parents. Saw signs like "the world is doomed," "Priests Rape Kids," "it is too late for prayer" and the obligitory "God hates Fags" among others. I'm sure the effort went a long way in advancing their "cause," whatever the hell it is.

Biggles was in rehab last Saturday

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: August 10 2008 at 14:21

johnobvious wrote:

About a dozen of these Froot Loops were in front of my church in Omaha this morning. Saw a couple of 3-5 year old girls as well there with their kook parents. Saw signs like "the world is doomed," "Priests Rape Kids," "it is too late for prayer" and the obligitory "God hates Fags" among others. I'm sure the effort went a long way in advancing their "cause," whatever the hell it is.

I really can't understand their cause, they say the saved people is predetermined before birth, and that only people from their "Church" can be saved.

What's the point of this cruzade if the ones to be saved are already chosen by God?

Who in hell can still believe this guys are a Church if they write phrases like:

WBC Thanks God For 900,000 People Made Homeless By Flooding In Mexico

http://www.godhatesmexico.com/

They thank God for the suffering of people....IS THIS CHRISTIAN?

August 9, 2008 – Heavy monsoon rains kill 40 people in parts of Hyderabad, with the heaviest rainfall in 8 years, bringing the total number of monsoon-related deaths in India up to 196 in 2008. Thousands of people die every year in India during the monsoon season.

August 3, 2008 – Due to inclement weather that God sent, stones from a retaining wall began to fall towards “pilgrims” climbing a 2.5 mile path leading to a Hindu temple. The pilgrims began to flee because of sheer terror (knowing that their sacred cows and their Hindu goddess Nainadevi whom they were going to worship can’t save their lives) and trampled women and children under foot. At least 145 people died; 40 children and 45 women. This is sick stuff! You have no faith in your gods and goddesses because you KNOW that there is only ONE True and Living God and His name is Omnipotent, Holy, Terrible and Revenger!

July 26, 2008- Islamic militant group set off 17 bombs in Gujarat, killing at least 49 and wounding 114.

June 27, 2008 - A 6.7 magnitude earthquake hits off India’s Andaman Islands with no reports of immediate damages or injuries. Wake up! This is a warning from God, expect more and worse to come!

2007 - Cyclone Yemyin killed 1,163. A deadly tropical cyclone that made landfalls on India and Pakistan.

December 28, 2005 - A bus collided with a gasoline truck and exploded, 30+ killed.

2004 - Eastern India, Bangladesh Monsoon rain killed 3,076 people.

December 26, 2004 - The Indian Ocean earthquake/tsunami killed 283,100. Yeah, baby! This is also known as the Asian Tsunami and the Great Sumatra-Andaman earthquake. It is one of the deadliest natural disasters in history, meaning India got a God-smack!

2003 - India heat wave killed 1,900 people.

January 26, 2001 - Gujarat Earthquake measured 8.1 on the Richter scale. It killed more than 20,000 people and injured 167,000 and destroyed nearly a million homes.

1999 - Orissa Kendrapara Cyclone killed 9,803 people.

1998 - India heat wave killed 2,541 people.

1998 - Eastern India, Bangladesh Monsoon rain killed 3,838 people.

December 24, 1996 - Indian Air Force Air Disaster with 22 killed.

August 20, 1995 - Train Disaster with 358 killed.

December 3, 1984 - The world’s worst industrial accident, killed 15,000 people.

Theses are just a few harbingers, mini delicious appetizers of God’s condign wrath and inevitable destruction of India to come!

http://www.godhatestheworld.com/india/godswrath.html

What God is that? Not mine, my God said:

See Matthew 22:36-40: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

Have this morons read the Bible. how can they rejoice in the death of people? This guys are sick bastards.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 10 2008 at 14:50

WinterLight View Drop Down

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Posted: August 10 2008 at 14:48

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

What God is that? Not mine, my God said:

Have this morons read the Bible. how can they rejoice in the death of people? This guys are sick ba[/bstards.

Yes, but the Bible is rife with self-contradictions; for every injunction on love, compassion, selflessness, etc. there's always another characterized by the most sanguine of barbarisms. In fact, one doesn't need to refer to the Old Testament to uncover such examples but can remain quite comfortably within the Pauline portion of the text.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: August 10 2008 at 14:52

Winter Light, there's not a single word of hate in JESUS teachings, that's enough for me.

Iván

johnobvious View Drop Down

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Posted: August 11 2008 at 10:03

They were at three different churches here in town. I didn't see anything on any local news channels which is good, because these freaks are just lapping up any free publicity they can get. I don't know if they will go away if we ignore them, but the less people see of them the better. I'm sure they love to get their claws into teenagers who are more impressionable and maybe have a rebellious streak in them who will jump on any cause just to piss off their parents.

Biggles was in rehab last Saturday

WinterLight View Drop Down

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Posted: August 11 2008 at 11:28

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Winter Light, there's not a single word of hate in JESUS teachings, that's enough for me.

That's literally untrue as evidence to the contrary is readily discovered with a perfunctory glance at a concordance. Luke 14:26 is one verse amongst many in which the word "hate" appears: "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." The interpretation of this verse does remain, I admit, somewhat controversial, but is not wholly unlike others. Taking a less literal approach one still finds Christ's tacit approval of human antagonism, if not hate: from Luke 12:49 we see that he asserts "I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?" and later he asks "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."

Edited by WinterLight - August 11 2008 at 11:29

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: August 11 2008 at 13:18

WinterLight wrote:

That's literally untrue as evidence to the contrary is readily discovered with a perfunctory glance at a concordance. Luke 14:26 is one verse amongst many in which the word "hate" appears: "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." The interpretation of this verse does remain, I admit, somewhat controversial, but is not wholly unlike others.

Your interp´retation is not accurate and it's explained everywhere.

As you know the Bible is translated from seceral sources with digfferent linguistic influences, in this cae the word hate comes from the Greek.

The Greks use the word in a similar way talking about how people should hate their family when they have to serve Greexce, in this case as in the Bible, Hate is used as a synonympus of giving pre-eminence.

In other words if you wanted to be an apostle, you hhad to give preeminence to God even over your own family.

This is Hebrew hyperbole. Jesus means that we must love him more than we love our families (see Matt. 10:37 to confirm this). That is, our allegiance to him must be greater than our allegiance to our own families. The issue here is family approval.

Jesus modeled this also (Jn. 2:4; Mark 3:21, 31-35).

Matt 10: 37: The one who loves his father or mother more than me isn't worthy of me, and the one who loves a son or daughter more than me isn't worthy of me.

It's clñear that the word hate is used in wrong copntext due to the translation

This is the reason why Catholic priests can't marry, so they are not placed in the circumstance to choose between God and their families.

WinterLight wrote:

Taking a less literal approach one still finds Christ's tacit approval of human antagonism, if not hate: from Luke 12:49 we see that he asserts "I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?" and later he asks "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."

Of course he came to bring fire, he questioned Jewish precepts, like the Talion law for non violence.

Of course the families will be divided, some will choose to follow the old Jewish laws and others will follow Christ.

It's easy to analyze the Bible and missinterpret Jesus words if you don't have a theological background, that's the reason why there ae so many Christian Confessions (More than 30,000), because each one understands something different.

Iván

Slartibartfast View Drop Down

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Posted: August 11 2008 at 13:34

When it comes to biblical translations, you really have to go back to the original languages (Hebrew and Greek) and not the many variations of English interpretations which where often severely altered by the interpreters to match what they believed at the time.

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

WinterLight View Drop Down

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Posted: August 11 2008 at 15:05

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Sorry, but theology isn't exactly quantum physics, although it is difficult, I admit, to avoid drowning in the mire of backward superstition. Of course, such tomes are susceptible to misinterpretation not because of insufficient wisdom (i.e., indoctrination) but rather because it is metaphorical at best and often outright unintelligible.

In any case, you could not be more incorrect in your implication that I haven't a theological background: not only was I baptized a Catholic, I attended a Catholic school for several years, and I've studied, albeit informally, the Bible (which I've read in its entirety six times) as well as other signal texts of the major world religions. In fact, this is my greatest sin: I endeavored to make sense out of my faith, and as a result, renounced it.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: August 11 2008 at 18:05

WinterLight wrote:

Sorry, but theology isn't exactly quantum physics, although it is difficult, I admit, to avoid drowning in the mire of backward superstition. Of course, such tomes are susceptible to misinterpretation not because of insufficient wisdom (i.e., indoctrination) but rather because it is metaphorical at best and often outright unintelligible.

Theology is a SCIENCE that involves:

History
Translatiions
Antropology
Laws
Archeolñogy
Geo-politics
Chemistry

I studied both Laws and Theology, and believe me, Laws was a joy ride compared to Theology.

BTW: Theology has no relation wih indoctrination, saying that reveals a total lack of knowledge about Theology, This science doesn't study ONE religion, studies all the religions.

That's why I laugh when I see so many self titled Doctors talking on TV because they studied in a Biblical School, that's only one very small part of Theology.

For example, when a miracle is apparent, the Vatican starts a trial, with the Devil's Advocate as a DA and the Deffender, who is a Theologist who also studied laws.

Teams of experts in all the fields are sent, for example the Saint Genaro Miracle which happens for centuries, is not accepted by the Church, because the chemical composition of the blod doesn't fit the parameters.

If a text is found, you need a team of Theologists, experts in ancient languages, chemical experts to study the composition of the documents, geo-political experts to study the circumstances of the determined country and experts in history who verify if the historical background is correct.

So, it may not be Quantum Physics, but is much more complex than any career. I didn't finished Theology because it was hard, too time consumming and honestly I would require a career to pay a hobbie, because I'm not a Priest and rarely would be called to verifuy a miracle or a canonization.

WinterLight wrote:

In any case, you could not be more incorrect in your implication that I haven't a theological background: not only was I baptized a Catholic, I attended a Catholic school for several years, and I've studied, albeit informally, the Bible (which I've read in its entirety six times) as well as other signal texts of the major world religions. In fact, this is my greatest sin: I endeavored to make sense out of my faith, and as a result, renounced it.

Your background is exactly as mimne before I started to studu Theology, I am baptized, studied in a Catholic School, studied in the Catholic University, but Biblical knowledge means nothing:

You as I (even after studying four semesters of Teology), are only scratching the cover, most theologists are above the 50 years old, because it takes a lifetime of exclusive studies to know something.

Iván

Slartibartfast View Drop Down

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Posted: August 11 2008 at 19:32

I did a bit of Bible study growing up. There's a lot of interesting stuff in there, particularly when it comes to prophecy. I'm still amazed how many self described Christians depart from it, particularly when it comes to holidays, foods, the sabbath, etc. But let's face it, the Bible is a real mixed bag.

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: August 11 2008 at 20:36

Slartibartfast wrote:

I did a bit of Bible study growing up. There's a lot of interesting stuff in there, particularly when it comes to prophecy. I'm still amazed how many self described Christians depart from it, particularly when it comes to holidays, foods, the sabbath, etc. But let's face it, the Bible is a real mixed bag.

Of course Startibast fast you’re right, the Bible mixes:

1. Different Religions: Old Testament is mainly the Torah, a Jewish Holy Book, Te Gospels are a transitional period, where Jesus creates the base of a New Judaism and the Acts of the Apostles represent incipient Christianity.

2. Different Eras: The Bible comes from before Bronze Age to almost the 160 or 170 AD if the Apocryphal Books are counted.

3. Different perspective: The Old Testament is a tough Book, is very vindictive, hard rules for a hard time, and the message of Christ contrasts with the previous, then the Roman Empire.

4. Different cultures: The Jewish culture of the Old Testament is very tough, all crimes are paid with life, is a closed Religion, only for Jews, at the end, they are the chosen ones. The New Testament is open for everybody, instead of killing your enemy, you have to love him instead of an eye for an eye, you must not return the aggressions but place the other cheek.

Now mix all this in one sack, allow the early Popes, Kings and Chronologists to alter what they don't like....You got a mess. That's why I trust more in the New Testament than in the old one, because it's 100% written and even the apochrifal books have strong similarities with the 4 Gospels.

So, it's hard to keep a coherent understanding of the Bible if you don't study all those eras and cultures.

Plus, the translation from oral tradition, to ancient languages, to Latin and to English, have a consequence......A lot of the original message is lost.

It's very complicated.

Iván

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Posted: August 11 2008 at 21:16

^ Now that's an encyclopedic answer, and quite good.

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

WinterLight View Drop Down

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Posted: August 11 2008 at 23:17

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Theology is a SCIENCE that involves:

How can theology can be considered a science? In what way does it employ scientific methodology? Are theologists genuinely interested in revising or even eliminating pet hypotheses if they cannot obtain any supporting evidence? I'm sorry, but your claim cannot be taken seriously in any meaningful context.

BTW: Theology has no relation wih indoctrination, saying that reveals a total lack of knowledge about Theology,

I didn't equate theology with "indoctrination." However, if I did make that comparison, then I'm not sure how it'd be indicative of a "total lack of knowledge of about theology." Total lack? My most charitable evaluation is that you must be using hyperbole to make a point.

This science doesn't study ONE religion, studies all the religions.

Not sure why you find it necessary to emphasize the obvious. Again, you can assert that theology is a science, but unless if you support that assertion with something resembling an argument then I'm afraid you have no case.

So, it... is much more complex than any career.

Another clear absurdity.

Can you compare texts in Greek with texts in Latin or Arameic? Do you know the geo-political situation of Israel in 0 - 33 AD? Do you have any knowledge of Canonical Law? Do you know what kind of behavior was politically accepted? Eo you know why some apocriphal documents are rejected? Do you have a decent knowledge of heresies?

This is like telling me that I'm unqualified to speak on the non-existence of Santa Claus because I've yet to acquire a working knowledge of elves and reindeer. Reminds me of Taylor's trial in Planet of the Apes.

Yes, self-delusion is a lifetime's work. Ultimately, you can have any belief, no matter how irrational, you so desire, but don't dress it up in rational, pseudoscientific attire.

Edited by WinterLight - August 11 2008 at 23:55

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: August 11 2008 at 23:57

WinterLight wrote:

Theology is a SCIENCE that involves:

I guess I posted something else here?

How can theology can be considered a science? In what does it employ scientific methodology? Are theologists genuinely interested in revising or even eliminating pet hypotheses if they can not obtain any supporting evidence. I'm sorry, but your claim cannot be taken seriously in any meaningful context.

Why do you delete all the disciplines and sciences that Theology involves?

Iván wrote:

Theology is a SCIENCE that involves:

History
Translatiions
Antropology
Laws
Archeolñogy
Geo-politics
Chemistry

I'm sure you copied my whole post and accidentaly deleted the part that weakened your position...Accidents happen.

BTW: Theology has no relation wih indoctrination, saying that reveals a total lack of knowledge about Theology, This science doesn't study ONE religion, studies all the religions.

Not sure that it's necessary to emphasize the obvious. Again, you can assert that theology is a science, but unless if you support that assertion with something resembling an argument then I'm afraid you have no case.

Believe I gave sufficient arguments that you deleted in order not to weaken your position.

So, it... is much more complex than any career.

Another clear absurdity.

Yes? LOL I would like to see you comparing the doictrines of at least 5 major religoions using scientific methods and studying Greek, Latin, etc or making a Scientific test of some miracle of any religion.,

Theology and Science is the scholarly journal of the Center for Theology and the Natural Sciences and is published by Routledge. The primary editorial goal of Theology and Science is to publish critically reviewed articles that promote the creative mutual interaction between the natural sciences and theology. While the journal assumes the integrity of each domain, its primary aim is to explore this interaction in terms of the implications of the natural sciences for constructive research in philosophical and systematic theology, the philosophical and theological elements within and underlying theoretical research in the natural sciences, and the relations and interactions between theological and scientific methodologies. The secondary editorial goal is to monitor and critically assess debates and controversies arising in the broader field of science and religion. Thus, Theology and Science investigates, analyzes, and reports on issues as they arise with the intention of prompting further academic discussion of them.

The central scientific focus of Theology and Science is on developments in physics, cosmology, evolutionary biology, and genetics, with additional topics in the neurosciences, the environmental sciences, and mathematics. With regard to the theological task, Theology and Science engages in both Christian and multi-religious reflection. The Christian theological agenda focuses on the various doctrinal loci of systematic theology. The multi-religious agenda attends primarily to theological issues arising from the engagement between the sciences and religious traditions such as Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, and native spiritualities. This approach reflects the editors' assumption that theology, as intellectual reflection upon one's religious tradition, should begin by expressing the fundamental commitments and worldview of a specific religious understanding, and that dialogue with science can best be pursued when such a religious understanding is given self-critical expression.

Attention is also given to research into the historical relationship between science and religion, along with research into the broader relationship between the philosophy of science and the philosophy of religion. Research in the social sciences and in the humanities is invited to complement these primary foci when it offers needed connections between scientific theories and theology. This may also involve the resources of such disciplines as anthropology, cultural studies, historical theology, and metaphysics.

http://www.ctns.org/theology_science.html

Oops, I forgot Astronomy:

The CTNS/Vatican Observatory Project:
Scientific Perspectives on Divine Action

The CTNS/Vatican Observatory Joint Program: Scientific Perspectives on Divine Action(CTNS/VO: 1990-2005). Beginning in 1990, CTNS and the Vatican Observatory co-sponsored a series of international research conferences on “scientific perspectives on divine action.” The series produced six scholarly volumes with contributions from over fifty distinguished scientists, philosophers and theologians. CTNS Founder and Director Robert John Russell serves as the General Editor of the CTNS/VO series. The summaries from these articles are available on-line.

The CTNS-Vatican Observatory book series is the fruit of a multi-year collaborative research project between the two institutions. It brings together into creative mutual interaction a diversity of topics in contemporary systematic and philosophical theology and fundamental theories and groundbreaking discoveries in the natural sciences. Special attention is given to the theological concept of divine action in relation to the sciences. The series features an international team of scholars including cosmologists, physicists, biologists, cognitive neuroscientists and neuroscientists, philosophers of science, philosophers of religion, systematic and philosophical theologians, historians of religion and historians of science.

The series began with a call from Pope John Paul II in 1979 for "fruitful concord between science and faith, between the Church and the world." In response, Dr. George Coyne, Director of the Vatican Observatory in Castel Gandolfo, Italy, organized the first major international conference in 1987 which resulted in the volume, Physics, Philosophy, and Theology: A Common Quest for Understanding (1988). This volume includes an eloquent message from Pope John Paul II on the need for a fruitful dialogue between science and religion. Based on this, Dr. Coyne proposed a major new initiative: a series of five conferences to span the decade of the 1990s. Its goal would be to expand upon the research agenda begun in Physics, Philosophy, and Theology.

In 1990, CTNS accepted Dr. Coyne's invitation to co-sponsor the series and jointly publish the resulting papers. The resulting five publications focus on the problem of divine action from a particular scientific perspective: cosmology and the laws of nature (1993), chaos and complexity (1995), evolutionary and molecular biology (1998), the neurosciences and the person (1999), and quantum mechanics (2001). A multi-year grant from a bay area foundation supported the Center's collaborative work with the Vatican Observatory.

http://www.ctns.org/research.html

Yes Winter light, I'm sure you're familiar with all this.

Can you compare texts in Greek with texts in Latin or Arameic? Do you know the geo-political situation of Israel in 0 - 33 AD? Do you have any knowledge of Canonical Law? Do you know what kind of behavior was politically accepted? Eo you know why some apocriphal documents are rejected? Do you have a decent knowledge of heresies?

This is like telling I'm unqualified to speak on the existence of Santa Claus because I've yet to acquire a working knowledge of elves and reindeer.

So...History, Attropology, Chemistry, Laws, Geo Politics, Philosophy are used to prove the existence of Santa Claus reindeers and elves?

Yes, self-delusion is a lifetime's work. Ultimately, you can have any belief, no matter how irrational, you so desire, but don't dress it up in rational, pseudoscientific attire.

It's a fact, you don't have a clue about Theology and what it involves.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 12 2008 at 00:11

Church group to protest funeral

WBC Thanks God For 900,000 People Made Homeless By Flooding In Mexico