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moltenlava View Drop Down
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Points: 2 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: What makes Progressive Metal progressive?
    Posted: July 07 2008 at 15:28
Then, there's a few new 'Metal' bands that are so busy being ridiculously progressive, that they've completely  forgetten to infuse the music with all the many elements that makes music pleasant to listen to.  The things that increase its replay value.  There's two rather newish bands called 'Belhold...The Arctopus' and 'Blotted Science' that have based their entire approach off  of 'changes'.   Their entire gig is discovering the changes which will take them from one small section to the next, all in a break-neck succession....or progression.  These bands are representative of the MOST progressive music I've ever heard.  Totally destroys bands like YES and Nektar in terms of being progressive.  Take the album 'Thick as a Brick' and all of those changes that occur over the entire 40+ minutes,  and then jam them into the first few minutes and you have 'Blotted Science'....BUT, unlike Tull's masterpiece recording,  these new Prog-Metal groups deliver absolutely no melody, no interesting or memorable hooks, no carfefully constructed chorus and no harmonic interplay.   EVERYTHING is based off of the changes.  And, after listening to the debut from Blotted Science' , you really are left quite impressed by what they've done....or, at least you should be.   But, once it's over, you're looking for your Rush and Pink Floyd records.
 
 
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Points: 2 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2008 at 23:42
Well, isn't everything relative?  One can use the Progressive Metal band, 'Spiral Architect' as the model, or standard of comparsion and ask how  the bands of the early 70's are progressive?  I don't know who here has heard this band before, but the only early 70's band that comes close to the level/degree of  progressive-ness is 'Mahavishnu Orchestra'.   Damn shame that there is only one 'SA' album too.  Yet, other bands or records would serve just as well as the model, like the first 'Aghora' album.   There's some Prog-Metal that makes some Prog-Rock look rather pedestrian, and there's certainly several examples of the opposite.   Schitt, I'm of the opinion that 'Neo-Prog' really means 'not prog at all'.
 
 
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2008 at 05:56
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Rush were considered prog rock - not metal - way back in the early 80s, at least on the U.S. West Coast, especially when compared to other non-progressive bands popular at the time (Police, AC/DC, Priest, Zeppelin)   ..let's try to get a grip


Wait, there was Prog Metal genre in the early 80s?



that's not what I meant, and though there wasn't 'progmetal' in the early 80s, there was a small amount of heavy metal that was progressive, it's just no one except a few musicians called it 'progressive metal' so in a way, it didn't really exist yet except to those who started to see progression in the music of Maiden, AngelWitch, Ozzy's first two albums and the impact it had on the San Francisco 'prog metal' scene; Metal Church, Anvil Chorus, Bleu Food, and Metallica


AHÁ! I KNEW IT! I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE TO THINK THAT METALLICA IS PROGRESSIVE! (at least in their 4 firsts albums)
 
 
Indeed not  - but are you familiar with Diamond Head's "Lightining to the Nations" album?
 
It's every bit as progressive in its own terms as Metallica (and obviously, one of Metallica's main "inspirations") - the way they were marketed was as a Progressive Heavy Metal band, I seem to recall.
 
Highly recommended to fans of Metallica's first 4 albums (and metal in general really - it makes everything they did afterwards seem tame by comparison).
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Points: 3596 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2008 at 21:15
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:

A few comments here
First, that quote from Emmerson - Does that mean we eliminate Krautrock from PA ? Oh, wait, that music is not repetitive, it is "droning". Or as they say in some quarters - prog music means not having to make up your mind as to what song you're playing (now you hear it, now you don't!)
 
I believe you're making a generalization about Krautrock that denies it's essence, Krautrock started as German Psyche, and for that reason exploring foreign influences rarely used in Rock before.
 
Yes, they have repetitive rhythm, but the exploration of the posibilities is in other point, they were the first to really use the heavy atmospheres and the spacey sounds, so they explored the posibilities as Emerson said, not my cup of tea, but they really deserve the name of Prog.

DB - Ivan, Krautrock is just a favourite target of mine. I often find one man's music is another's noise; yet both might use the same terms to describe the one they like. Is Faust's debut any less noisy than,say a Death album? BTW, it was meant as a joke ...Tongue

Second, prog metal is doomed because it is associated with metal. Metal is associated with noise. Noise is associated with RIO/Avant-Garde and Krautrock, therefore Prog Metal is not prog.
 
That's called reduction to absurd, and would only work if the screams and noise were an exclusive characteristic of a non Prog genre, but it's not, you have noise in early Psyche if not listen Careful with that Axe Eugene also with early Hard Prog, you can listen Uriah Heep or Deep Purple or even the distorted noises that King Crimson used and Uriah Heep, or the noises inclueded in early space Pink Flyd albums .
 
Noise can be found anywhere.

DB - I unfortunately have recently found it in the right front tie rod end on my 2002 Saturn. Again, the intent is to make fun of some of the terminology that can be used when dismissing one genre of music . I sometimes surprise myself at times. This past winter, on an acquaintance's recommendation, I picked up Napalm Death's "The Code Is Red, Long Live The Code". At first, it was, well ... a noise fest. Then later, I actually came to like it for what it is - a noise fest LOL But it is good for blowing out the tubes when you're feeling blah.

Third - Prog Metal can't be prog 'cause there are loud guitars and screaming singers.
 
Loud guitars: Marillion, Heep, Deep Purple, Kansas, Genesis (Listen Giant Hogweed), Rush,
 
Screams: Have you ever listened the Musical Box Final section, or Giant Hogweed or Supper's Ready? Of course if you don't want to mention David Byron, David Surkamp, Geddy Lee, etc and even the ballad oriented Greg Lake singing 21st Century Schizoid Man with heavy distorted guitars.
 
There are screams everywhere.

DB - again , humour. The old Rock n Roll adage - If it's too F**king loud, you're too F**king old. I love it Loud. Sometimes. other times calm and quiet. Add to that, I'm a big fan of Bon Scott AC/DC (their raw period), and the Fast Eddie Motorhead ( the punks fave metal group)
 
Fourth - Keyboards are necessary for a band to be considered prog ?
 
I don't believe so, instruments don't make the music, musicians make the music.

DB - exactly

Fifth - No , really , keyboards are necessary for a band to be prog ?
 
Honestly, I believe not.
DB - and you are right

Sixth - Can someone stop that ringing ?///}
 
Ask a doctor, may be the same virus that attacked Phil Collins and caused him tinittus. LOL
 
Iván

DB - nah, that from hitting your snare & cymbals too hard. I know, because one night at a jam, I played bass. I only noticed at the end that my left ear was about a foot or two from those two percussions. Confused
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Points: 7971 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2008 at 20:36
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Rush were considered prog rock - not metal - way back in the early 80s, at least on the U.S. West Coast, especially when compared to other non-progressive bands popular at the time (Police, AC/DC, Priest, Zeppelin)   ..let's try to get a grip


Wait, there was Prog Metal genre in the early 80s?



that's not what I meant, and though there wasn't 'progmetal' in the early 80s, there was a small amount of heavy metal that was progressive, it's just no one except a few musicians called it 'progressive metal' so in a way, it didn't really exist yet except to those who started to see progression in the music of Maiden, AngelWitch, Ozzy's first two albums and the impact it had on the San Francisco 'prog metal' scene; Metal Church, Anvil Chorus, Bleu Food, and Metallica


AHÁ! I KNEW IT! I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE TO THINK THAT METALLICA IS PROGRESSIVE! (at least in their 4 firsts albums)
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Points: 65744 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2008 at 19:38
Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Rush were considered prog rock - not metal - way back in the early 80s, at least on the U.S. West Coast, especially when compared to other non-progressive bands popular at the time (Police, AC/DC, Priest, Zeppelin)   ..let's try to get a grip


Wait, there was Prog Metal genre in the early 80s?



that's not what I meant, and though there wasn't 'progmetal' in the early 80s, there was a small amount of heavy metal that was progressive, it's just no one except a few musicians called it 'progressive metal' so in a way, it didn't really exist yet except to those who started to see progression in the music of Maiden, AngelWitch, Ozzy's first two albums and the impact it had on the San Francisco 'prog metal' scene; Metal Church, Anvil Chorus, Bleu Food, and Metallica
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Points: 7971 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2008 at 19:01
Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Rush were considered prog rock - not metal - way back in the early 80s, at least on the U.S. West Coast, especially when compared to other non-progressive bands popular at the time (Police, AC/DC, Priest, Zeppelin)   ..let's try to get a grip




Wait, there was Prog Metal genre in the early 80s?



Well, as far as i know now there was brutal raw black metal on the early 70's! Confused
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Points: 10094 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2008 at 18:59
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Rush were considered prog rock - not metal - way back in the early 80s, at least on the U.S. West Coast, especially when compared to other non-progressive bands popular at the time (Police, AC/DC, Priest, Zeppelin)   ..let's try to get a grip


Sure!

ALL YOU GUYS GER BACK TO TROPIC !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

or else . . . .








ok now what do we do
(sorry, had to Wacko Wink)


Edited by heyitsthatguy - June 19 2008 at 19:01


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Points: 4079 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2008 at 18:56
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Rush were considered prog rock - not metal - way back in the early 80s, at least on the U.S. West Coast, especially when compared to other non-progressive bands popular at the time (Police, AC/DC, Priest, Zeppelin)   ..let's try to get a grip




Wait, there was Prog Metal genre in the early 80s?
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Points: 7971 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2008 at 18:21
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Rush were considered prog rock - not metal - way back in the early 80s, at least on the U.S. West Coast, especially when compared to other non-progressive bands popular at the time (Police, AC/DC, Priest, Zeppelin)   ..let's try to get a grip


Sure!

ALL YOU GUYS GER BACK TO TROPIC !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

or else . . . .



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Points: 65744 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2008 at 16:48
Rush were considered prog rock - not metal - way back in the early 80s, at least on the U.S. West Coast, especially when compared to other non-progressive bands popular at the time (Police, AC/DC, Priest, Zeppelin)   ..let's try to get a grip
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Points: 7971 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2008 at 15:46
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:

Another point with labeling, what heavy metal was back in 1981 is not what it is today. I remember well those old days as a teenager. What was deemed heavy metal? Ever see the animated movie with the same title? Hello? Sammy Hagar was added to the genre.


Well, he is not on Metal Archives . . . Tongue


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBz8Vw2JXwg

I *love* that song!Big%20smile


O crap, the cheese is flowing through my computer screen LOL
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Points: 21680 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2008 at 14:51
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:

Another point with labeling, what heavy metal was back in 1981 is not what it is today. I remember well those old days as a teenager. What was deemed heavy metal? Ever see the animated movie with the same title? Hello? Sammy Hagar was added to the genre.


Well, he is not on Metal Archives . . . Tongue


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBz8Vw2JXwg

I *love* that song!Big%20smile
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Points: 7971 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2008 at 14:29
/\

lol me neither LOL
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2008 at 13:39
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

/\
Mike, you meant labels like progressive rock, hard rock and progressive metal right? Because Death metal was properly coined by Possessed and black metal was properly coined by Venom. . . .

Strangely enough, Spooky Tooth is labeled progressive rock on Wikipedia . . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spooky_Tooth
 
I don't find that strange at all Wink
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Points: 7971 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2008 at 11:53
Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:

Another point with labeling, what heavy metal was back in 1981 is not what it is today. I remember well those old days as a teenager. What was deemed heavy metal? Ever see the animated movie with the same title? Hello? Sammy Hagar was added to the genre.


Anyway, this happened because this kind of music evolved into something different, unlike what happened to Rush: their music still recorded inside their albums, just like 30 years ago! The only thing that changed is our heads! We must not give in to these foul influences and make our ground: Rush is NOT progressive metal.
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Points: 4079 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2008 at 11:40
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:

Another point with labeling, what heavy metal was back in 1981 is not what it is today. I remember well those old days as a teenager. What was deemed heavy metal? Ever see the animated movie with the same title? Hello? Sammy Hagar was added to the genre.


Well, he is not on Metal Archives . . . Tongue
 
Nor should he be! Wink 
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Points: 7971 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2008 at 11:36
Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:

Another point with labeling, what heavy metal was back in 1981 is not what it is today. I remember well those old days as a teenager. What was deemed heavy metal? Ever see the animated movie with the same title? Hello? Sammy Hagar was added to the genre.


Well, he is not on Metal Archives . . . Tongue
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Points: 7971 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2008 at 11:34
Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:

I want to interject here. It was with Rush's second release, the first with monster Peart, that they headed into Prog. By-Tor and the Snow Dog was, IMO,  a creation with inadvertent  Prog elements. Yes, they were hard rock, but they turned the corner with this release. Only those well versed in their material witnessed this. Those that only knew Fly By Night, the song, would see them as merely hard rock.
 
They contributed heavily to the future of what would be Prog Metal. I think investigating some current Prog Metal band inspirations will show this.
 


That is not any problem viewing them today as a progressive rock band, but i personally know people who lived that time and they say that Rush is merely a INCREDIBLE, TERRIFIC, etc, hard rock band, just like Uriah Heep, and thats it. They recognize that they had some prog elements, but that don't change the fact, for them, that Rush is a hard rock band.

Maybe Rush should be left as a had rock band with progressive elements or a hard/heavy/whatever progressive rock band, but never a heavy metal neither a progressive metal band. Hell, even Geddy Lee dislikes the label, just like he said (if i am not mistaken) on the documentary METAL: A Headbanger's Journey (available on Youtube).
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Points: 4079 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2008 at 11:27
Another point with labeling, what heavy metal was back in 1981 is not what it is today. I remember well those old days as a teenager. What was deemed heavy metal? Ever see the animated movie with the same title? Hello? Sammy Hagar was added to the genre.
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