Most Complex Time Signature ever!?

^ What?

Abstrakt wrote: Just Found Out that "Rational Gaze" by Meshuggah is in 4/4!

Well if you'd just listen to the drums, it wouldn't be near as suprising. Try memorizing that pattern in tempo.... I've only been able to pull it off a handful of times without the song playing.

Cygnus X-2 wrote: Abstrakt wrote: Some More: Bill Bruford - Hells Bells 9/8 I've read and heard (as well as counted it) as 19/16.

Ten bucks says that Bill Bruford just sees it as 4/4 with an added 3/16, and Dave Stewart sees it as 7+7+5/16.
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And any signature you see where the bottom number is not '2-to-the-power-of-something' virtually does not exist in music. I think that includes 2^0, which is 1.... hmm does single meter exist?
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I think polyrhythms are a different story though. Like 9:4, 7:4 ... I learned how to drum a 5:4 and 7:4 pattern (with my hands, I'm not a drummer, yet) by learning how 5/16 and 7/16 interacts with 4/4 when the 16th note of each has the same set tempo.

The middle section of The Mars Volta's "Cygnus... Vismund Cygnus" is in 29/16. I doubt that's very toppable. Speaking of which, what is the time signature for the riff after the drum solo in One Word - Mahavishnu Orchestra? I just cannot figure that bitch out man, it's doing my nut in...

There was Don Ellis back in the early-70's, who had a big band which specialized in weird/complex time signatures, 27/16, etc.  Check out his Wikipedia entry.

"One might just ask well as what the most complicated mathematical equation is. The equation might take up many pages and the answer could turn out to be 1. The time signature thing is exactly the same. The gibberish time signatures you all are putting up DO NOT EXIST musically, they only exist mathematically.

The measures in question all break down into sub groupings of 2, 3, or 4 pulses. No player will ever count to 27 (or even 17 or 11) as he reads his part. He will look at the music and break it down into sub-groupings, take out his pencil and mark the score accordingly."

It's not because musicians don't count them as they are written that they doesn't "exist".

I put this post up well over a year ago and then let it go.  If you all want to play around in your little fantasy world that is certainly fine with me, but absolutely everything I said in that post is 100% correct.  12 years of formal music education 3 advanced degrees (2 Masters and 1 PhD), and 15 years practical experience playing and teaching music theory gives me some indication that I just "might" know what I am talking about.

If you want to get into I can and I will back up everything I've said; if not you're the one who needs to let it drop. Don't call me out if you don't want the answers.  If you want to live in a magical world where incorrect information is "right" because some kids say so, as I said, I'm OK with that.  if you want to know the truth, you'll have to be willing to learn.  Which is it going to be? 



Edited by Trademark - May 13 2008 at 16:29

All very interesting stuff certainly BUT has anyone yet run this past that timid and self-effacing creature lurking in the shadows called: PHRASE LENGTH ? (The Bambi of music theory)
This is what determines ANY time signature, it's where the musical statement(s) can be deemed to have reached a natural pause for breath. Similar to punctuation for written sentences.
After all, taking the reductio ad absurdum route here, we could theoretically transcribe 'Three Blind Mice' into say 15/16 with disingenuous recourse to rests to 'balance the books'
The problem with so many of the 'math rock/prog metal' bands around is that they just seem to either add or subtract beats to bog standard rock riffage and call it complexity. If a musical phrase is conceived that expires naturally after an unconventional number of beats, then fine and dandy, but all I can hear is the furious planing of round pegs into square holes.


Edited by ExittheLemming - May 13 2008 at 19:37

My long answer has been erased with the attack, I'm not writing everything again. A few points :

- The questions here : "how do I write these musical phenomenons?" and "what is useful to write?", not "what does exist?". And there are no rules, it depends of the cases. With complex rhythm structures, sometimes time signatures are useless, sometimes they're a way to emphasize structure, sometimes they can be point of reference... which leads to :

- Rock music isn't classical music. Rock is about repeated riffs, drum patterns, cycles... You can write stuff in rock music that you wouldn't write in classical music, or write in a different way. If the main riff in a song is repeated 32x and is in 3+4+4+3+4/8, I don't see any problems to write it that way, or 19/8, or 9/4, instead of 3/8+4/8+4/8+3/8+4/8, or whatever. Time signature could only indicate duration here.

- That DT song has no 11/4, 17/16 and stuff (the only "unusual" time signature is 15/8), so the Stravinsky comparaison does hold up (they share some rhythmic means). Fanciful time signatures come from bad transcriptions. Instead of lecturing people, you could have simply corrected the transcriptions (I don't think 9/16+12/16+8/16 (Mars volta's Cygnus) would seem less "complex" than 27/16 to anyone).

- "Time signature" does not equal "meter".

- What Bartok example do you think of?

- If you're just trying to say that 27/16 is a stupid way to note a musical phenomenon, there is no need to tell everyone they live in some "magical world", because most of time signatures in this thread are simple and coherent. I think the answer you gave me here isn't quite the same you gave to other people before, it sounds to me like you just wanted to show off and lecture people.


Edited by Madklikor - May 14 2008 at 14:27

What monster? 

^ what did Meshuggah ever do to you?