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Atavachron 
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 Posted: April 22 2008 at 03:44 |
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lighten up, there's art and there's business and occasionally the two meet.. I mean, is it really surprising that complex and experimental music doesn't appeal to large numbers? ..BTW, you can be a tasteful, cultured person and absolutely love a show like American Idol.. it doesn't define you
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Squonkman
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Posted: April 22 2008 at 01:50 |
We're not talking whether some piece of instant pop fluff happens to be a hit song. Yes that happens in every decade. We are talking about what the significance is of most popular show in the country, and its implications on pop culture, youth and societal music tastes. How many record companies are out there who will discover, sign, nurture and let develop a young King Crimson, a young Genesis, a young Yes etc. How many record companies, in this instant "are you a hit" 15 minutes of fame pop culture, would let a band noodle around making long complex progressive instrumental filled tracks, without a real chart hit, to the point of letting them do 4 songs on a double album, and still produce their record?
Thank God for the indie movement, small labels and the exposure of the internet, but the dumbing down is not just in pop music but country as well (see earlier posts). I am not saying Am Idol "caused" all this, just that its a huge contributor to the dumbing down of society on a massive commercial scale, which produces a society where a show like TMZ, where people sit around "reporting" on whether a celebrity walked out of a restuarant or not, thrives. Who do you think watches that stuff, in addition to the plethora of vacuous scandal and "reality" shows? To dismiss it all as just some passing fancy that will all get better, instead of looking at the inexorable march to further mediocrity and devaluation of what is truly appreciated and treasured as good music etc, is foolish and simply constitutes sticking your head in the sand.....
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jammun
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Posted: April 21 2008 at 22:12 |
Yep, it's all about the quick payoff these days. The record companies are reduced to suing their consumers. Not a good sign of things to come.
Even Clive Davis, who totters out at some point during AI each year to tell us all how great the ex-AI contestants are doing on the charts, has totally lost it. This was the guy who ran Columbia during the late-60's and of all people should know you need to invest in artists and give a chance for the seed to bear fruit. Wasn't he the one who signed Janis Joplin and probably a dozen other Columbia artists back when?
In any case there has always been questionable tactics:
Who had a hit with Tutti Frutti back in the '50s? Was it Little Richard or Pat Boone? The correct answer is shameful.
What were the Archies, with Sugar Sugar, doing in the Top Ten during the '60s?
Why was Convoy a huge hit in the early-70's?
I used to get pissed off that none of my favorite bands won a Grammy. I quickly learned that the Grammys are irrelevant, and so is AI. I could go on but it's depressing.
To get back to the spirit of the original post: AI is but a symptom, not a cause. The listening public has for decades chosen crap over quality (and not just in music), so why scream at the universe, when it ain't listening?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: April 21 2008 at 21:37 |
 jammun wrote:
As someone else has already pointed out, since at least the days of Elvis there has been some record company producer or exec working day and night to dumb down music.
You hit the nail in the head, but it's not an owners effort to destroy music, they are not so stupid (despite they seem so), it's the terrible system.
In the 70's, guys like Tony Stratton Smith (Charisma) or Richard Branson (Virgin Records) owned the companies and also managed them, this guys searched for good artists, because an owner knows he's going to be related to the company for years, so they searched for potentially good artists that will have a years relation with their companies. The reason was that if they didn't recovered their investment in a month, they would have years to do so, that’s why bands like Genesis, VDGG or even a 19 years kid called Mike Oldfield, who had a monstrous project playing all the instruments had a chance. That's also the reason why past artists lasted longer and why some are still active.
Today the owners hire young executives who are judged by their successful choices, if they find an artist who sells 10 million copies in 6 months and then vanish...WHO CARES?
The owner recovered his investment 9in a few months and gained some millions, the executive receives his salary and probably a promotion. The executive doesn't care for long lasting artists, because he may leave the company tomorrow, so he is encouraged to recruit fast selling artists, doesn't matter if they are one hit wonders, the owners want money and the executives only care for short relation with the artists, anyway they will probably be fired before they reach 35 years.
AI is not the first time this has happened, nor will it be the last. Yes, it's a hugely popular show, but have you taken a look at the Billboard Top 40 lately (do the even still have that? I'm out of touch.).
That’s a logical consequence of this system, improvised artists may have one hit but normally they don’t repeat, the finalists of American Idol have already paid the investment the network made on them, and the company will probably make a Best of American Idol 2008 album that will sell by millions.
What else can you expect from kids who can hardly read music, much less write something coherent?
Even the telephone company is gaining money with the millions of calls being made.
Why should anybody of them care for the future of the kids or even for Rock?
I can guarantee you that routinely in every decade since the '50s much of popular music has been swill. So let's not blame AI for the dumbing down of music; that's been going on since Day 1.
There's a study that proves that for example Elvis was in the charts until the 80's, The Beatles and Rolling Stones still sell, Pink Floyd or even some Prog bands from 70's, and even Pop artists, still are popular, in the 80's the debacle started, few artists of that decade have survived the 90's, only a handful of 90 artists reached 2000's and only a couple of 2001 artists made it to 2005.
Each decade, the artists last less, that’s he business, fast selling artists (so they gain a lot of bucks immediately) and fast vanishing (to leave space for new disposable artists).
The system from which American Idol is only the peak of the iceberg is killing Rock.
Iván |
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jammun
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Posted: April 21 2008 at 20:41 |
As someone else has already pointed out, since at least the days of Elvis there has been some record company producer or exec working day and night to dumb down music.
AI is not the first time this has happened, nor will it be the last. Yes, it's a hugely popular show, but have you taken a look at the Billboard Top 40 lately (do the even still have that? I'm out of touch.).
I can guarantee you that routinely in every decade since the '50s much of popular music has been swill. So let's not blame AI for the dumbing down of music; that's been going on since Day 1.
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johnobvious
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Posted: April 21 2008 at 17:16 |
I am trying to stay on topic and do not want to get into it with you on Genesis. You are obviously pretty passionate about it and that is fine. I'm sure Banks and Rutherford already had huge bank accounts and didn't need the money, but I respect your take on it. Can we still talk about AI and how it is ruining America? 
Edited by johnobvious - April 21 2008 at 17:17
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Biggles was in rehab last Saturday
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Squonkman
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Posted: April 21 2008 at 17:12 |
johnobvious wrote:
Squonkman wrote:
johnobvious wrote:
A Why did Genesis go out on a reunion tour last year? Not for any love of the music and to carry the prog banner. They had product people wanted to buy, so they sold it. I hate Idol with the burning intensity of 1,000 suns but can I blame the producers or Fox for peddling it? No.
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I absolutely disagree with that statement. Don't frickin lump Genesis in with American Idol for God's sakes. Genesis was very clear about their intentions on touring last year. They didn't need the money. Phil specifically said he could take it or leave it as far as touring. They did the tour because they had entered into discussions about a 5 man reunion, and when Gabriel balked or wouldn't commit, the 3 man group decided they still wanted to play together, and they realized they owed it to long time fans who never really got a farewell or reunion tour. Did they make money, sure, but that isn't the reason they did it. The bottome line was they were friends and they just wanted to play together. If it was all about money, why did they limit it to 20 shows in Europe and 20 in the US? They could have played 100 shows all over the world----Phil didn't want to.
And in fact, it was not simply a greatest hits tour or a tour that catered just to the 80s "pop" era----they played a lot of prog music, alot of instrumentals and didn't play a bunch of "pop" era tunes, like Misunderstanding, Abacab, Paperlate, In Too Deep etc. |
I'm not lumping them in. I'm making a statement about what makes the world go around. Of course Genesis aren't going to say it was for the money, blah, blah ,blah. If they weren't going to be handsomely rewarded, they would not have done it, end of story. And I have no beef with them going out. More power to 'em.
I feel your pain, man. I wish prog was given more chance to get out to the masses. And we all want people to like what we think is best of whatever category is on offer because it validates our beliefs. But when it comes down to that or the almighty dollar, that dollar will win most of the time. Is it right? That is a discussion for the ages.
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Genesis did not tour JUST for the money. Your statement is patently false. They wanted to play together at least one last time and they genuinely like each other. They also realized that after the debacle that was the cancelled CAS tour here in the US in 98, they did owe the fans something. Contrast that with the Police, who all hate each other, which was even visible on stage, and who toured all over the place---they did do it for the money and the record company pushing it. Genesis did 40 shows. If it was all about the money, they could have done 120 shows. So you are wrong---don't just throw crap like that out there unless you have some specific evidence to back it up.
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johnobvious
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Posted: April 21 2008 at 17:01 |
Squonkman wrote:
johnobvious wrote:
A Why did Genesis go out on a reunion tour last year? Not for any love of the music and to carry the prog banner. They had product people wanted to buy, so they sold it. I hate Idol with the burning intensity of 1,000 suns but can I blame the producers or Fox for peddling it? No.
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I absolutely disagree with that statement. Don't frickin lump Genesis in with American Idol for God's sakes. Genesis was very clear about their intentions on touring last year. They didn't need the money. Phil specifically said he could take it or leave it as far as touring. They did the tour because they had entered into discussions about a 5 man reunion, and when Gabriel balked or wouldn't commit, the 3 man group decided they still wanted to play together, and they realized they owed it to long time fans who never really got a farewell or reunion tour. Did they make money, sure, but that isn't the reason they did it. The bottome line was they were friends and they just wanted to play together. If it was all about money, why did they limit it to 20 shows in Europe and 20 in the US? They could have played 100 shows all over the world----Phil didn't want to.
And in fact, it was not simply a greatest hits tour or a tour that catered just to the 80s "pop" era----they played a lot of prog music, alot of instrumentals and didn't play a bunch of "pop" era tunes, like Misunderstanding, Abacab, Paperlate, In Too Deep etc. |
I'm not lumping them in. I'm making a statement about what makes the world go around. Of course Genesis aren't going to say it was for the money, blah, blah ,blah. If they weren't going to be handsomely rewarded, they would not have done it, end of story. And I have no beef with them going out. More power to 'em. I feel your pain, man. I wish prog was given more chance to get out to the masses. And we all want people to like what we think is best of whatever category is on offer because it validates our beliefs. But when it comes down to that or the almighty dollar, that dollar will win most of the time. Is it right? That is a discussion for the ages.
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Biggles was in rehab last Saturday
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Squonkman
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Posted: April 21 2008 at 16:20 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
'scuse me, but when I saw this thread's title I couldn't stop laughing.... |
Why?
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: April 21 2008 at 16:18 |
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'scuse me, but when I saw this thread's title I couldn't stop laughing....
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Squonkman
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Posted: April 21 2008 at 16:17 |
johnobvious wrote:
A Why did Genesis go out on a reunion tour last year? Not for any love of the music and to carry the prog banner. They had product people wanted to buy, so they sold it. I hate Idol with the burning intensity of 1,000 suns but can I blame the producers or Fox for peddling it? No.
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I absolutely disagree with that statement. Don't frickin lump Genesis in with American Idol for God's sakes. Genesis was very clear about their intentions on touring last year. They didn't need the money. Phil specifically said he could take it or leave it as far as touring. They did the tour because they had entered into discussions about a 5 man reunion, and when Gabriel balked or wouldn't commit, the 3 man group decided they still wanted to play together, and they realized they owed it to long time fans who never really got a farewell or reunion tour. Did they make money, sure, but that isn't the reason they did it. The bottome line was they were friends and they just wanted to play together. If it was all about money, why did they limit it to 20 shows in Europe and 20 in the US? They could have played 100 shows all over the world----Phil didn't want to.
And in fact, it was not simply a greatest hits tour or a tour that catered just to the 80s "pop" era----they played a lot of prog music, alot of instrumentals and didn't play a bunch of "pop" era tunes, like Misunderstanding, Abacab, Paperlate, In Too Deep etc.
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The T
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Posted: April 21 2008 at 16:11 |
Ivan, Was any of these good arguments on the original post which was the one I replied and to which reply to reacted ? No. In that post the thread creator basically accused AI of killing PROG and the music business... he didn't say anything about the show's other aspects... That's what I replied.
Again, AI is a consequence. If you teach children to love money above anything else, then waht do you expect...
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Squonkman
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Posted: April 21 2008 at 16:09 |
this is a tangential issue, and probably deserves a seperate thread, but it is related to the American Idol issue. I am amazed in this era of hundreds of cable channels, satellite tv etc, how little live music there is on television. I am talking about a regular show with a variety of bands who just play live. I hate to keep going back to the 70s, but I grew up as a teenage watching the Midnight Special and Don Kirshners Rock Concert. There was also Soundstage on PBS. Granted, these programs were on late at night, but usually on weekends. In an era where there was no videos, no internet, this was the only way to SEE what your favorite bands looked like. And those programs all had variety----you could see everything from hard rock to country to pop and even some progressive bands. Kansas played on the Kirshner show (Kirshner also produced them). Supertramp played on Midnight Special. You might see Olivia Newton John right after Bad Company or Deep Purple. It was a great way to taste different genres of music and to see bands actually playing. I know England had the Old Grey Whistle Test and Germany had the Rockpalast music show.
Its amazing now that you hardly see any live music on TV. The channels that call themselves video music channels don't show live music, or very little of it, and don't even show videos now. They show stupid "reality" shows like Hulk Hogan and Bret Micheal trying to get laid. Inspid vacuous garbage. How bout showing us some friggin BANDS playing actual live music you nimrods?????
And that was in the day when they were 5 channels including public television. Plus you had many more variety and music themed shows, which admittedly were geared for the general public and much more pop, but still showed live music----Sonny and Cher, Tom Jones, Johnny Cash, Tony Orlando etc. Now, other than SNL and a few talk shows, where do you see live music on TV?
Instead, we get YouTube, which fosters the attention span of a gnat. Watch a video clip for 40 seconds, and if you don't like it, move on to the next one.
All this is to the detriment of the general youth population, and ties in with my point about American Idol. Instead of watching real bands play real music, we see 15 minute of fame wannabes hacking classic songs to smithereens in the hopes of "touring" and making money, without every paying their dues or developing naturally as a musician or singer.
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johnobvious
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Posted: April 21 2008 at 15:56 |
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A. Idol is about one thing only. Money. Give the people what they want. They are selling what people are buying. Wouldn't we all want Simon Cowell's bank account? For all we know, he loves prog, but prog don't sell. If I have a product that I know will make me millions, wouldn't I be an idiot not to sell it, no matter my feelings towards it? Why did Genesis go out on a reunion tour last year? Not for any love of the music and to carry the prog banner. They had product people wanted to buy, so they sold it. I hate Idol with the burning intensity of 1,000 suns but can I blame the producers or Fox for peddling it? No.
As for poisoning kids minds, the problem is they don't know better. They hear music they like so they gravitate towards it. If they knew for a fact that if they explored the 10's of thousands of other bands out there that they would like a lot of them more, they might change their attitudes. But most of them don't even know those other bands exist or are capable of making them happier so they fall in with all the other sheep. You just gotta hope a kid has the where with all to keep an open mind to all things outside what gets shoveled at them through pop culture and finds the big wide world out there.
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Biggles was in rehab last Saturday
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StyLaZyn
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Posted: April 21 2008 at 15:22 |
1800iareyay wrote:
I'm sorry guys, I want to post how it's destroying us, but I just can't focus. I mean, HOW could they vote off Michael? He was SO good! |
Excellent post!
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1800iareyay
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Posted: April 21 2008 at 15:13 |
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I'm sorry guys, I want to post how it's destroying us, but I just can't focus. I mean, HOW could they vote off Michael? He was SO good!
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: April 21 2008 at 15:00 |
I do believe American Idol, yes T also the USA version, they bombard us every deay with that through the cable, don’t talk about Latin American Idol because it’s even worst.
At least in the USA version, Randy Jackson knows something about music (Well, he played with Aretha, Journey and Jean Luc Ponty) and Cowell’s comments are pretty accurate, here the woman chosen flirts with artists and nobody knows a damn sh!t about music.
The problem is that they are seeding wrong values in the youth, let me start:
- No matter how bad you are or how ridicule your singing is, go and make a fool on TV: The casting shows are offensive, some guys really can’t sing at all, but they show this guys because it’s fun to see a poor idiot making a clown of himself. The sad thing is that some of them, like an oriental guy who sang something like “Shiboom Shiboom” (Don’t know or care how it’s written), must be the worst singer in known universe, but still he got a show in Vegas…Is this what we want our kids to learn?
- If you suck, still rant and insult everybody on cameras: There are candidates who can’t sing a all, I’m sure their parents must have told them, or friends or neighbors, but still they cast and when with absolute logic, they are not selected, they insult everybody……That’s how we want our kids to act?
- Doesn’t matter you are not the best, just look great, be popular and you will have the chance: This kids are being harmed, even the ones with good voice, because they will stop improving their artistic skills to look better, maybe some breast implants for girls, dressing at the latest fashion on guys, instead of telling them, “Please pal you have a good voice, but with a couple years of study you will be better”, they give the wrong message “Hey, look good, forget about making your style batter, you are cute so you are a star”…How many of this kids are going to succeed in real world? Probably they will be a fashion for a month and then they are forgotten.
- Writing songs is a waste of time, just sing popular tunes and you will be a star: Some of this kids are able to sing they’re own stuff, but they are encourage to be Karaoke artists and sing what others write, in this way the industry will still get some extra millions for new versions of old hits, that’s the point of the show. Do you believe Rock will survive with a culture of Karaoke singers?
- Some of this kids are ruining their lives: Lets be honest, some of this kids sound intelligent enough to study a career instead of wasting their time, but Mrs. Paula Abdul lies to them telling that they are already stars, if one real star appears each year, it’s too much, don’t lie to the kids, tell them the truth…”Hey, you will never do a living on this, better study a career”. But the 24 finalist already believe they are stars and waste their klifes.
There are more arguments against this silly program, I believe it’s harmful for music, but worst for the contestant and teen audience, probably the son or daughter of one of you is already believing “Why should I study, if I’m good looking and can sing a bit?”. Now tell them they are wrong and you will be the bad father/mother who doesn’t support them, while Simon Cowell makes another US$ 10’000,000 per year (maybe 10 times that) on the disgrace of many young people.
Iván
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StyLaZyn
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Posted: April 21 2008 at 14:53 |
Squonkman wrote:
I don't dislike all pop music. In fact, I am a prog fan who is very open and receptive to pop music influences----I am not like some that won't even touch 80s Genesis for example. I like bands like Kansas and Pure Reason Revolution and the Moody Blues. I grew up on great pop music I listened to on AM radio, back when AM radio was the soundtrack for our lives. I still listen to a lot of "pop" music like Elton John, Chicago, the Beatles, and heck, even the Carpenters and Abba. |
Me too, exactly!
Squonkman wrote:
There is a difference between slickly produced corporately created commercialized pop music designed to cash in on something that is already popular as opposed to a talented band or artist being able to write or craft a great pop tune from sheer talent. There is a difference between a pop band that works hard to make themselves good musicians, hones their craft, and pays their dues and puts out a good product which then becomes popular, and a prearranged, corporate concoction foisted on the pliable apathetic masses. Which is why good alt country with great songwriting and a little edge is not as successfully marketed as "country rock" which is vacuous and cheesy and easy to sell on corporate country radio. When you have accountants and record company suits deciding what the country listens to, instead of artists and music insiders and true musicians, you get what we have today from American Idol to Disney to corporate slick country rock. It wasn't like this in the 70s, at least as much. While there is always some schlock, there was more of a freedom to make honest music without corporate meddling back then, until the disco age came along. Record companies nowadays take much less chances, and as a result, you get much less quality and more stuff that is popular for 10 minutes but will never last. We are in an era where music is processed, consumed, spit out and forgotten in a very small span of time. |
If you mean the increase of one-hit wonders, I would like to agree because I think the same thing, but I have no data to support it. But here's to Porcupine Tree who essentially rose to the top without the need for a record companies backing. I'm sure they are not filling the wallet of some corporate suit like Hannah Montana.
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TGM: Orb
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Posted: April 21 2008 at 14:45 |
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That show is actually hilarious. For all the wrong reasons.
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Squonkman
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Posted: April 21 2008 at 14:27 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
Squonkman wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
You worry too much. I am not a fan by any means but see no threat to the youth. Pop music has been around for quite some time and sorry to say, it's not dying. What I can't stand is the increase of Country music fans. Rap seems to have leveled off but Country music in the States is on the rise. Why? You can thank Mr. Garth Brooks for incorporating the Rock theatrics and sound into his shows. Country music now more than ever sounds like rockabilly.
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When your kids would rather see American Idol Live and Hannah Montana rather than Genesis or Porcupine Tree, there is cause to worry. Sometimes I think I am more in tune and hip than my kids.
Re country, the country that is marketed and played on the radio is the same result of the kind of slick corporate marketing hype that I was talking about with American Idol and Disney etc. Real country, what is now called "alt country" is pushed aside for the slickness and fluffiness of digestable '"feel good" praise the country, the USA can do no wrong crapola as exemplified by Toby Kieth, Brad Paisley etc, and real country musicians like Steve Earle, Lucinda Williams, Neko Case, etc have to fight for smaller audiences because they don't make digestable feel good pablum consumed by the masses. Ironically, the alt country rockers who don't get airplay are carrying on the tradition of Johnny Cash etc, and the country you hear on the radio is like Journey and REO of the 80s. So thanks for helping confirm my point about the dangers of marketed corporate machine driven music tastes. |
Laugh this up. When I was a kid I used to love to watch Donnie & Marie and Solid Gold. I lived for Kasey Kasem's countdown. Today, can't stand them.
No worries. These things shall pass. But also, the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Not to begrudge your point, but people actually like Pop music. It doesn't mean they are stupid or have no taste. It just appeals to them. Face it, Prog fans take pride in NOT listening to mainstream and will stand on their soap boxes to belittle pre-processed music.
Ask yourself. Doesn't music serve a purpose? Don't you listen to it because you enjoy it? Would you want someone telling you your music sucks only because their music is "better"?
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You are also missing the point. I don't dislike all pop music. In fact, I am a prog fan who is very open and receptive to pop music influences----I am not like some that won't even touch 80s Genesis for example. I like bands like Kansas and Pure Reason Revolution and the Moody Blues. I grew up on great pop music I listened to on AM radio, back when AM radio was the soundtrack for our lives. I still listen to a lot of "pop" music like Elton John, Chicago, the Beatles, and heck, even the Carpenters and Abba.
There is a difference between slickly produced corporately created commercialized pop music designed to cash in on something that is already popular as opposed to a talented band or artist being able to write or craft a great pop tune from sheer talent. There is a difference between a pop band that works hard to make themselves good musicians, hones their craft, and pays their dues and puts out a good product which then becomes popular, and a prearranged, corporate concoction foisted on the pliable apathetic masses. Which is why good alt country with great songwriting and a little edge is not as successfully marketed as "country rock" which is vacuous and cheesy and easy to sell on corporate country radio. When you have accountants and record company suits deciding what the country listens to, instead of artists and music insiders and true musicians, you get what we have today from American Idol to Disney to corporate slick country rock. It wasn't like this in the 70s, at least as much. While there is always some schlock, there was more of a freedom to make honest music without corporate meddling back then, until the disco age came along. Record companies nowadays take much less chances, and as a result, you get much less quality and more stuff that is popular for 10 minutes but will never last. We are in an era where music is processed, consumed, spit out and forgotten in a very small span of time.
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American Idol--the dumbing down of music
