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Angelo View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2008 at 15:52
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:



the connection is: i cant go to any prog festival or prog show, no matter the size, no matter the venue, no matter when. i just cant because i don't have neither the money to travel such distances nor the possibility to watch any prog rock bands EVER in the city where i live. And in Europe (Netherlands in your case) you have such abundance and are STILL cursing the Heavens, wishing smaller bands to have more space on big shows. Well, prog rock don't sell 60 million copies anymore so, besides the amount of the good anonymous bands, promoters are still more interested in make money.

To make money is the only reason why there are no more space for unknown bands on that festival and why there are only 1 progressive rock band in my state. Maybe thats the problem with capitalism: to put the products in front of the man; to put the HAVE in front of the BE. CryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCry



Now I got it. You've got a point there. I'll be promoting the unknown bands for free - how's that? Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2008 at 17:56
i lol'd LOL.

However, how do you expect me to find these bands in such an arid place for progressive rock like where i live?

Edited by CCVP - March 23 2008 at 18:08
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2008 at 18:30
Don't be so negative about your country, start listening to Apocalypse! Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2008 at 18:37
its not about my country im being negative, there are a great amount of prog in Brazil, there is just almost none in my state, and its expensive to bring things to where i live. and they usually get fooked up on the way here.Cry

Hell, i bet there are places in Netherlands that are just as oblivious, in the prog matter, as prog here. But you must keep 1 thing in mind: my state is almost the size of your country Wink. So, even when some places have poor offer of prog you can order or just travel a couple of miles to get to a metropolis and get your stuff there. The nearest place i can do that is Rio de Janeiro, and i have to travel 250 kilometers to get there Thumbs%20Down


Edited by CCVP - March 23 2008 at 18:57
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2008 at 19:47
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

its not about my country im being negative, there are a great amount of prog in Brazil, there is just almost none in my state, and its expensive to bring things to where i live. and they usually get fooked up on the way here.Cry

Hell, i bet there are places in Netherlands that are just as oblivious, in the prog matter, as prog here. But you must keep 1 thing in mind: my state is almost the size of your country Wink. So, even when some places have poor offer of prog you can order or just travel a couple of miles to get to a metropolis and get your stuff there. The nearest place i can do that is Rio de Janeiro, and i have to travel 250 kilometers to get there Thumbs%20Down

Only 250KM?
 I know some Americans who have had to travel nearly 1000km to watch Rush last year. These people weren't wealthy by anyone's standards either. They went without things and scraped the money together any way they could.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2008 at 20:01
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

its not about my country im being negative, there are a great amount of prog in Brazil, there is just almost none in my state, and its expensive to bring things to where i live. and they usually get fooked up on the way here.Cry

Hell, i bet there are places in Netherlands that are just as oblivious, in the prog matter, as prog here. But you must keep 1 thing in mind: my state is almost the size of your country Wink. So, even when some places have poor offer of prog you can order or just travel a couple of miles to get to a metropolis and get your stuff there. The nearest place i can do that is Rio de Janeiro, and i have to travel 250 kilometers to get there Thumbs%20Down

Only 250KM?
 I know some Americans who have had to travel nearly 1000km to watch Rush last year. These people weren't wealthy by anyone's standards either. They went without things and scraped the money together any way they could.



i knew people that were in the same conditions, on the line to watch dream theater. some guys traveled over 800 kilometers until Rio. I must admit here that my conditions are not the worst possible: i could live in Sierra Leone and won't be able to eat. However, i think that i spend unnecessary amounts of money to buy cds, dvds, and things alike. Besides, we are talking here about small venues with new and unknown progressive bands. In this last case i think i am indeed very poorly supplied.


Edited by CCVP - March 23 2008 at 20:16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2008 at 20:09
The road distance  between Vitória, where CCVP lives, and Rio de Janeiro  is 540 km (around 330 miles). It's a trip of 6-7 hours (non-stop) by car. Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2008 at 20:15
WHOA, thanks Guigo. For sure it made my point stronger about how hard it is to live in Vitória and to love prog.
There you have it baby, i have to travel more than half what those americans drove to see rush just to buy some cds. Whats worse now eh?

Edited by CCVP - March 23 2008 at 20:20
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2008 at 20:18
Nah... I'm sending to my peers a batch of photos of Vitória (your city, my mom's city) and they'll check the "arid palce" where you live. Big%20smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2008 at 20:21
Originally posted by Atkingani Atkingani wrote:

Nah... I'm sending to my peers a batch of photos of Vitória (your city, my mom's city) and they'll check the "arid palce" where you live. Big%20smile


I LOL'D LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL


Arid place pro progressive rock, my friend; for prog rock Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2008 at 20:35
Hey, some of those Americans sold kidneys or family members just to get tickets and then walked the 1000km to the venue.
Seriously, I understand your plight. The local bands will stick to the big cities and the non-South American bands find it very expensive to play there.
Surely you could save up for the annual prog festivals like Bahia Prog?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2008 at 05:14
Point is clear, Caio. However, looking at the photographs Guigo send me, I could imagine myself putting on head phones (with any prog you like to take along), take a walk and enjoy 'the view from a hill' in the Vitoria area..... 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2008 at 07:30
In living in the booming, bustling small metropolis that is Moncton New Brunswick Canada, the opportunity to see any prog band is dependant on one of them to come through Quebec City, Montreal or Toronto. Which means an eight , eleven, or twenty four hour drive. Add in that me & my friends are for the most part married with children, working, and most limiting - limited budget wise when it comes to road trips. Rush and Van Halen hit the above cities and while we excitedly discussed the possiblity, none believed all the pins would line up to allow us to go.
I am sure that there must be one or two local prog bands, but their rare shows aren't promo'd as prog. And a CD is not likely available. Moncton does have  healthy (for a small indie scene) metal, punk, folk & country scenes. SO it's not as if this is a new music wasteland. Just that more "esoteric" genres have a much smaller foot print.
For myself, I'm still working on Montreal's FMPM festival. But unable to convince a friend who loves the Strawbs to go to Montreal last year, I don't think I have a better chance of convincing people to come with me to see Univers Zero this year. Cry
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2008 at 08:52
When starting this thread I will admit that I had not taken geographical issues into account, which is understandable considering I live on a island off the coast of Europe, where it takes around 6 hours to drive from one end to the other (and I have made that journey in the pursuit of music several times).
 
However, the aim of thread was to encourage grassroots support for live music at local level rather than to mount expeditions to "the big cities" to see "the big names". To drag people away from the TV and PC and into the real world to see real musicians play music in small venues. So, it's rough and noisy, hot and sweaty, and you cannot see the stage for a mass of moshing teenagers, and perhaps you cannot appreciate the subtle nuances of the chord structures when the drums and bass overpower mix and the singer is a little off-key, but perhaps that is as it should be, raw, naked and unrefined. And most of all - it's exciting.
 
If there is no music scene in your town then get together with some friends, hire a church hall, place small ads in the local guitar/music shop ("Prog Bands wanted for local gig") book local bands (many will play for free just for the opportunity to play -  even if you only get a couple of punk/emo bands it doesn't matter -  it's a start), photocopy flyers and litter the local schools and colleges, create a scene and develop it. You won't make any money, and neither will the bands, but you will enjoy the experience. I've done this, it takes a little effort but it is worthwhile, over time your audience will grow and bands will be begging you to put them on the bill.
 
I accept that in this digital age that some bands do not have to play live to make music, that it can all be done in seclusion, in the studio, in the home studio, on a PC, but all to often that creates cold clinical music that lacks soul and depth, it's too polished, too refined; it needs a live environment to hone and temper the compositions into something more organic and vibrant before they are committed to bits and bytes in the studio. It needs to work in front of an audience (however small) before it can work on disc.
 
Promoting a band over the internet is hard work from a cold-start, they cannot hit the ground running - uploading some tracks and spamming music forums can only get them so far if they don't have an established listener base to start with. The Internet can only be of real use when a band has a home-grown following that it can use to seed it's MySpace page (or whatever) and to create that necessary buzz.
 


Edited by darqDean - March 24 2008 at 08:53
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2008 at 12:36
The next ''Dream Theater"? I think I'll pass . . . Tongue
 
Okay, so what you are saying is that the fans of indie prog acts of today need to do more to support their favorite group. Well, I can't speak for anyone else here, but if someone REALLY cares about a band to begin with, they are gonna pay for the CD, not download it, and they are going to go to gigs when teh bands comes their way. If someone who is listening to my band's music doesn't like us enough to go the extra mile, and has to be told to do so by somebody on a forum, then I don't think I want their support anyway.
 
Real fans are what keep bands going, and no matter how few or how many of them there may be, they are the ones that matter. I understand about the whole making money thing, but frankly if the artists wanted to make money they should have signed to a major record deal and stuck their fingers up at artistic expression. I think anyone who plays original music knows what they are in for before they even begin the touring phase of their band's career.
 
Then again, I may be misreading you. After all, it's always nice to get money for doing what you love, but if it were me, I would be perfectly content to just make enough to live on so I could keep making music. Anything extra that would ever lead to luxouries would simply be icing on the cake.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2008 at 12:49
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

I don't really think the future of progressive music is dependent on doing a large quantity of live shows and massive touring.  I first became a prog fan in the LP/Cassette/8-track era.  Touring was essential back then.  And you better believe I've seen more than a few shows in small venues, with small audiences, which is a wonderful way to experience great music. 

Now, there are a larger variety of other avenues to spread your music to interested parties.  The amount of good live material on DVD for example.  I have a really nice large selection of concerts I can revisit anytime I like and the artists didn't have visit me or my area personally, I didn't have to drive too far if at all.  I can also get the accessory merchandise directly from the artist's web site.  When you can see the artists in person performing live, it's always icing on the cake.  I see in the future more shows happening in select locations and being shared by DVD.  If these are sold on the artist's web site, then the majority of the profit goes to them.  Buy things direct from the artist whenever you can!

I think prog is well suited to adapt, is doing so, and reports of it's dying are premature.
You are the echo of my thoughts! Clap As I have stated a few times already, Prog was singled out in 1977 by such illustrious rags as Trouser Press, Creem, Melody Maker and NME , who all jumped on the popular punk bandwagon and crucified what they adored a few years earlier. From 1978 to 1983 , Prog was like a pebble of sand in the Sahara : very lonely! Marillion's somewhat courageous stand kept the flame alive, albeit shakily ! By 1992 , the genre survived by going underground far from the media-fueled ridicule. New Wave is gone (unless you count elevators) , Grunge is nowhere to be heard, so every musical form survives the media glare and lives on . Prog never died and frankly never will, as there is simply way too many stellar groups TODAY . Spirits never succumb, we all should believe in at least that or else apathy (today's sickness) will overtake us all. AmenConfused


Well, i am not from the LP/cassette/8-track era neither have experienced the arise, fall and the rebirth of prog rock, so i cannot know how important touring was back then. But i know some things about how today's media have affected prog fans nowadays. Having so many ways to know your idol without really knowing him neither seeing him play have brought some troubles, like the INCREDIBLE amount of "posers" and fans of the "in" band. Hell, when i went to the Dream Theater show on march 7 i could witness that: the incredible majority of people there did even knew what was going on when they played songs that were not from their last album. Just a bunch of old fans, me and my buddy knew the name of the song and its lyrics; everyone else just stood there!
OK, movie clips are important, and also DVDs, but the offspring that they create is hated or despited by the old fans/new fans who REALLY know the band (my case is the 2nd).

I had a similar experience with seeing Porcupine Tree live (Deadwing tour).  There were three guys behind me who apparently spent good money (probably their parent's) on tickets only to spend their time trashing the band vociferously (some people have too much money) and basically ruining the concert for me, thought the standing room only setting certainly did it's part.  PT not having any t-shirts for sale was certainly a bummer too.


Edited by Slartibartfast - March 24 2008 at 12:52
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2008 at 13:43
Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Point is clear, Caio. However, looking at the photographs Guigo send me, I could imagine myself putting on head phones (with any prog you like to take along), take a walk and enjoy 'the view from a hill' in the Vitoria area..... 


Sure man, i always do that. However, how could i do that with not many places to buy prog albums?Quite a bummer huh?ErmmAngryThumbs%20Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2008 at 13:45
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

I had a similar experience with seeing Porcupine Tree live (Deadwing tour).  There were three guys behind me who apparently spent good money (probably their parent's) on tickets only to spend their time trashing the band vociferously (some people have too much money) and basically ruining the concert for me, thought the standing room only setting certainly did it's part.  PT not having any t-shirts for sale was certainly a bummer too.


the n00bs where not thrashing the band, they were just n00bs being n00bs
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2008 at 13:51
Going to and organising concerts is a great way to help progressive music -- and buy CDs while you're there.  I've been lazy... I have a couple of ins with music festivals and have been meaning to bring in progressive bands, but family and other matters have distracted me.

I've tried to research active progressive bands from the Greater Vancouver are in the past which may wish to do concerts.  It is about time I got in touch with some, and see about getting them into an Arts Festival.  Free concerts, but they'd get paid something, and they can sell CDs.  Best for publicity and for the joy of playing.  Of course it would be good to see them live first, and I rarely go to non-classical music concerts, or see non-classical music musicians.  The jazzier, and softer, ones would fit the bill better, and those who combine classical and jazz styles.  Solo artists would be good too for a smaller venue, but the getting the word out (publicity) is a lot of work.  People should use their connections and organise.

I really want to see Fond of Tigers play live.

The Prog Gigs & Festivals forum could be better organised by region and get more support.  I always forget about that forum, but used to check it just in case any live events around Vancouver were being mentioned.  Sorry mentioning "Improve this site" issues, but it would be great if there was, or is there?, a prog events calendar on the home page that was fully searchable by region, but would show the latest events by default and every member could add items to.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2008 at 14:21
Originally posted by p0mt3 p0mt3 wrote:

The next ''Dream Theater"? I think I'll pass . . . Tongue
Irrelevant. Confused
 
Originally posted by p0mt3 p0mt3 wrote:

 
Okay, so what you are saying is that the fans of indie prog acts of today need to do more to support their favorite group. Well, I can't speak for anyone else here, but if someone REALLY cares about a band to begin with, they are gonna pay for the CD, not download it, and they are going to go to gigs when teh bands comes their way.
Catch 22 - how do you get people to hear your music in the first place? How did you get to hear of your favourite modern band? How did they become "famous" enough for you to hear their music? Were you at their early gigs before they were signed? Did you follow them when they were 3rd on the bill in a dingy club, played for 30 minutes and didn't get paid?
 
No. You heard about them in the music press or through the internet, then got curious and bought their CD. But for them to get that far, some other people did all those other things.
 
Originally posted by p0mt3 p0mt3 wrote:

 
If someone who is listening to my band's music doesn't like us enough to go the extra mile, and has to be told to do so by somebody on a forum, then I don't think I want their support anyway.
Does your band suddenly appear on the scene fully-formed and with a substantial following? No, the only artists that magically appear with an instant following are the manufactured boy-bands and Pop Idol wannabies - you don't - you have to build-up a following by self promotion and hard work - contrary to popular belief it's not all record company hype, payola and PR magic. Without that the A&R people won't even know you exist - you can send out a million demo CDs and you'll get a million rejects because unless your 'product' is the most amazing thing since the digital watch they only sign bands they have heard of.
 
As I said, the Internet will only get you so far - you still have to put in the hard work to get noticed. All those "feel-good" stories you read of artists being discovered on MySpace are PR hype and yet another form of industry manufacturing - I'll wager most of those artists had signed contracts before their MySpace page was produced and all the other 100,000 bands on MySpace are shooting at thin air.
 
Originally posted by p0mt3 p0mt3 wrote:

 
Real fans are what keep bands going, and no matter how few or how many of them there may be, they are the ones that matter. I understand about the whole making money thing, but frankly if the artists wanted to make money they should have signed to a major record deal and stuck their fingers up at artistic expression. I think anyone who plays original music knows what they are in for before they even begin the touring phase of their band's career.
Have you even the slightest idea of how difficult it is to get signed to any record label, let alone a major? The only reason bands self-release albums, (ie indie release, it's basically the same thing - the majority of indie labels are one-act wonders originally set up to promote one band), is because they cannot get a major deal - it has nothing to do with artistic expression or integrity - that is just a smoke screen.
 
Originally posted by p0mt3 p0mt3 wrote:

Then again, I may be misreading you.
probably Wink
 
Originally posted by p0mt3 p0mt3 wrote:

After all, it's always nice to get money for doing what you love, but if it were me, I would be perfectly content to just make enough to live on so I could keep making music. Anything extra that would ever lead to luxouries would simply be icing on the cake.
It's nothing to do with making money or even earning enough from music to get by, very very few of today's Prog bands earn enough money to live on - Mac from Threshold quit the business last year because he could earn a living from it. Truth is, most bands do it for the love of music.
 
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