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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Points: 37575
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Posted: August 08 2007 at 07:09 |
Even Satanism (which I do not regard as a valid faith, even after the intentions of Anton LeVay to promote is as such) is not inherrantly against christianity and (as hard as this may be to accept) Satanism does not actually support the worship of Satan, or regard him as the Antichrist - but see Satan as symbolic of the animalistc instincts of human nature. That caricature view of devil-worshipping, christ-hating satanism is an invention of pulp-fiction, trashy horror novels and cheap b-movies.
Now, don't get me wrong - I am not expounding, promoting or justifying Satanism - I actually regard it as a purile nonsense, but not the polar opposite of Christianity. I can be accused of many things in this world, but "naive" is not one of them
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I'm not talking about real Christians, because I respect every belief or disbelief, but a few criminals and bigots destroy what the good men do.
Iván |
I agree 100% with everything you wrote (including the bits I snipped due to length). If we are going to survive on this tiny planet then we all must learn tolerance, respect and understanding.
Edited by darqdean - August 08 2007 at 07:12
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What?
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10261
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Posted: August 08 2007 at 07:11 |
schizoid_man77 wrote:
On the argument about the religion, I dont understand why some idiots would make an anti christian faith anyway, just to upset us christians? I highly respect what jesusislord was saying earlier, and we shouldnt be finding little conspiracies in the name of stuff like vicarius domine or whatever. |
I had no idea that being of the Christian faith is mandatory. So you call me an idiot, because I founded a different faith? Very interesting indeed. Would you have called Jesus an idiot 2000 years ago too? Enough said.
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: August 08 2007 at 08:41 |
thellama73 wrote:
Shakespeare wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
Maybe YOU don't put a gender label on God, but these religions clearly do.
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I think they only call God "He" because they have to call Him something. "It" wouldn't be personal at all, and at the time when He was first being called "He", feminists were not exactly popular. I remind you that He is also referred to as "Lord" which doesn't specify a gender.
Now let's move on from that...
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I suppose we could call God "they."
In the beginning, they created the heaven and the earth etc.
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Unless I am mistaken as it has been a while since my Bible study, way back in the day, possibly about the time of Moses, people did not say the name of God or refer to gender. God was simply "I Am".
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: August 08 2007 at 08:55 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
darqdean wrote:
schizoid_man77 wrote:
On the argument about the religion, I dont understand why some idiots would make an anti christian faith anyway, just to upset us christians?
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Why would they do that? Nobody has ever created an anti-christian faith - that just doesn't make sense - you cannot make a religion about being against something and honestly, no one would bother doing it just to upset christians. |
Believe it ot not they are a lot of anti Christian quasi religious groups, but that's the fault of some Christians, once the Catholic Church was extremely unpopular, now some Christians who reject Catholics, Orthodox, Mornmons, Jehova Witness, etc, claim to be the chosen ones.
Once the Catholic Church was very closed, now the Popes have asked excvuses for past mistakes, we are willing to admit that salvation is an open door for everybody, but some Christian groups are becomming more and more radical.
It doesn't help that every bigot calls himself the true Christian, you have Bob Jones who creates a University that doen't admit interracial dating or even marriages among their students of different races, a fanatic who insults catholics, Jewishs, Moslems, etc.
Every white supremacy group claims to talk in the name of Christ. Stupid fanatics who call themseves "Pro Life" bomb abortion clinics and kill people and they say they do it in the name of Christ (I'm not in favour of abortion except in some specific cases like rape or therapeutical abortion, but I'm more against this lunatics)..
Neo nazis and KKK claim to be Christians, even George W who is a Christian and represents USA, goes to the racist, homophobic and anti.Catholic Bob Jones University during his campaign.
The sad thing is that the good Christians with open minds have to suffer the reaction against all this bigots.
The rational Christian Churches should take a strong position against this lunatics instead of calling them "mistaken brothers" or else the anti-Christian feeling will keep growing.
I'm not talking about real Christians, because I respect every belief or disbelief, but a few criminals and bigots destroy what the good men do.
Iván |
You have brought up the point that illustrates man's influence on his fellow man. The very early Christian groups worked together in community with exception of the elitists. The followers of John the apostle.
They were the ones to originally start the heretic idealism within the religion in order to try and prove themselves as the correct and only proper religion. They were the original religion bigots.
While other Christian groups were traveling the world, preaching the word of Jesus, these zealots, who stayed only regionally, disallowed anything outside John's teachings or at least anything that imposed a somewhat differing view. Because they stayed regionally, their faction grew much faster than other Christians who didn't deny others. They rose to power and when the time presented itself and Constantine decided to make Christianity the official Roman religion, they had already positioned themselves into a tight cult that was very influential.
These days, some other Christian religions try to say they have the correct teachings of Jesus and others are wrong in effort to maintain a strong following. Its very much the same as it was in the beginning.
Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.
Edited by StyLaZyn - August 08 2007 at 08:59
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: August 08 2007 at 09:08 |
in fact "Yahweh" (or in some transcriptions "Jehovah") means "I am that I am"
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: August 08 2007 at 09:15 |
schizoid_man77 wrote:
darqdean wrote:
schizoid_man77 wrote:
On the argument about the religion, I dont understand why some idiots would make an anti christian faith anyway, just to upset us christians? |
Why would they do that? Nobody has ever created an anti-christian faith - that just doesn't make sense - you cannot make a religion about being against something and honestly, no one would bother doing it just to upset christians. |
Wow, that's one of the dumbest things I've read on this topic yet!
Satanism is COMPLETELY against christianity! Thats just naive not to think that!
POLAR OPPOSITES! |
Remember Jesus spoke the ultimate absolute. "He who is not with me is against me...".
In light of this, any non-Christian religion could be deemed as anti-Christian. Not just Satanism, but Buddhism, Islam, etc... where the teaching of Jesus are not acknowledged. And then we get into the divisions of Christianity. Some of those are deemed flawed by other Christian religions.
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Prog-jester
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 05 2005
Location: Love Beach
Status: Offline
Points: 5871
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Posted: August 08 2007 at 09:19 |
Mmmm...Lucifer *in a Homer Simpson manner*
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: August 08 2007 at 11:31 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
Remember Jesus spoke the ultimate absolute. "He who is not with me is against me...".
Taking out of context the words of Jesus or misunderstanding them, causes the problems among Christians, imagine how confusing may they be for non Christians (And I incvlude catholics beven if some Christians don't consider us part of the community).
Those words were directed towards the Jewishs, tremember Christianity was not born as a new religion but as the acts of the JEWISH Messiah, and he said a truth, thiose JEWISHS who were not with him, were the ones who wanted to crucify him.
Christianity spread later and some words taken out of the context and directed against those who were not part of his opriginal followers may be misinterpreted.
So it's a fact those who kew about him in the year 33 AD and were not with him, were against him, Jewishs mainly because Romans didn't cared too much, to the point that Pilates as a classical politician left the decision to crucify Chtrist in hands of the mob despite he clearly said he believed Jesus was a fair man who had commited no crime.
In light of this, any non-Christian religion could be deemed as anti-Christian. Not just Satanism, but Buddhism, Islam, etc... where the teaching of Jesus are not acknowledged. And then we get into the divisions of Christianity. Some of those are deemed flawed by other Christian religions.
That's not truth, some Buddhist leaders have spoken with great respect about a young Ravi capable of miracles and with great wisdom who went to India in his childhood during the lost years of Jesus to escape from Herod, I seen an interview to a Tibetan book keeper Lama who clearly mentioned the name of Jesus in a program called "The Lost Years".
Islam talks with great respect about Jesus Christ, they don't see him aa God but they beleive he was a prophet, remember at the end the God of Abraham is the same God of the Moslems with another name, and I seen a lot of respects of real Moslems to the name of Jesus Christ.
As a fact they were the only ones who protested when the pupett of Mike Rutherford (the one useed in Land of Confusion) was later used to represent Jesus in a Christian children proggram.
Even the modern Jewishs talk about Jesus as a Prophet.
So despite what some fundamentalists who misunderstand the word of Jesus believe, the other religions are not anti-Christian, most of the times they show more respect for our beliefs than some Christians show for their's.
Now, Satanism is clearly anti-Christian, despite whatever they say to the general public, they adore the symbol of all evil in Chritianity, so they can't be other thing than anti christians and anti God in general terms.
Iván
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: August 08 2007 at 11:46 |
To be Christian, you must accept Jesus as being the Son of God, right?
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: August 08 2007 at 12:19 |
well, Jesus himself says "Is it not written in your law I have said 'you are Gods' " (John 10:34), referring to Psalms 82:6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: August 08 2007 at 12:29 |
BaldJean wrote:
well, Jesus himself says "Is it not written in your law I have said 'you are Gods' " (John 10:34), referring to Psalms 82:6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.' |
I am sure we will have someone let us know what he "really" means.
The fact of the matter is that Christianity has had many years to decipher what Jesus spoke about. They are well equipped with defenses. And I expect nothing less because if you are going to change the world, you better have all your bases covered.
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laplace
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 06 2005
Location: popupControl();
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Points: 7606
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Posted: August 08 2007 at 12:32 |
I assume page one of this thread wasn't a religion debate ;P
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: August 08 2007 at 12:38 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
well, Jesus himself says "Is it not written in your law I have said 'you are Gods' " (John 10:34), referring to Psalms 82:6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.' |
I am sure we will have someone let us know what he "really" means.
The fact of the matter is that Christianity has had many years to decipher what Jesus spoke about. They are well equipped with defenses. And I expect nothing less because if you are going to change the world, you better have all your bases covered. |
I am quite prepared for a debate; I know the bible very well. I had to read it for my study of ancient history
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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darksinger
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: Durham, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 1091
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Posted: August 08 2007 at 12:50 |
DallasBryan wrote:
Whats you feeling on their relationship. Most of the great progressive rock from the 70's was made by those under the influence of psychedelics, narcotics and practitioners of occult, new age or mystical teachings. Most of the european progressive music was also developed for listening to in the altered state that the musicians were being enhanced by.
Whats your opionion?
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I think mostly Lucifer is used in a metaphoric sense in music, especially in progressive and progressive metal. Satan or Lucifer is often seen as a symbol of wisdom, especially higher or forbidden wisdom. Learning things you aren't supposed to know. He is seen also as a betrayed figure-a figure that has fallen from grace.
satan also sells. People, especially young people, buy into this rebellious, dark stuff that defies blatantly the "straight and narrow". Jesus and God don't get the same reaction as Satan (unless you mutter those words around militant atheists...hint: get off your high horses about not liking god and all....you are not being outspoken-you are being annoying. as annoying as christians get when i utter the word "pagan" around them, so can it). the minute some righteous preacher screams on tv that a band worships satan, the sales of that record jet through the roof.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: August 08 2007 at 12:51 |
Lucifer Sam, Siam Cat
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: August 08 2007 at 13:16 |
BaldJean wrote:
in fact "Yahweh" (or in some transcriptions "Jehovah") means "I am that I am"
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As a fact that was the answer from God to Moses when he asked "Who are you my Lord" and God replied "Ego Sum Qui Sum" I am who I am. )Taken from the Vulgata)
God was known in the early days of Judaism "He who has no name" even today thye orthodox jews refuse to to write the word God they use sometimed G-d.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 08 2007 at 13:17
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: August 08 2007 at 14:07 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
To be Christian, you must accept Jesus as being the Son of God, right?
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John 10:30 :
"I and my Father are one."
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
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Points: 17493
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Posted: August 08 2007 at 14:11 |
What would Anton Le Vey's vision of prog be?
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: August 08 2007 at 14:19 |
The T wrote:
What would Anton Le Vey's vision of prog be? |
well, he released three albums of Synth music - I haven't heard them though.
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What?
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: August 08 2007 at 19:55 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
in fact "Yahweh" (or in some transcriptions "Jehovah") means "I am that I am"
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As a fact that was the answer from God to Moses when he asked "Who are you my Lord" and God replied "Ego Sum Qui Sum" I am who I am. )Taken from the Vulgata)
God was known in the early days of Judaism "He who has no name" even today thye orthodox jews refuse to to write the word God they use sometimed G-d.
Iván |
he said "אהיה אשר אהיה" (pronounced "Ehyeh asher ehyeh"), which is best translated as "I shall be as I shall be". ancient Hebrew does not have any tenses. it has an imperfective aspect and a perfective aspect of time. but that's about all I remember of it; I stopped learning Hebrew; I had enough to do with ancient Greek and Latin. I even had to look up the Hebrew spelling of it
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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