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The T 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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 Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:27 |
 Equality 7-2521 wrote:
The T wrote:
I wouldn't agree with that. A society based on private charity will turn into a class-divided society.... or maybe that's the goal of some... I don't agree.
Even to the psych of the receiver, it is better to know you're getting your government's help than some rich guy's "mercy"....
But I understand, it's all based on american individualism.... And from that point of view, as inhumane as it may look, the logic is perfect. |
So it's better to recieve charity stolen from people who don't want to give it than from genuinly altruistic people who do?
How would a society based on private charity turn into a class-divided one? People helping each other will result in divisions of class?
And what is inhumane about charity? Isn't that the opposite of inhumane? |
It wouldcreate TWO classes: THE GIVERS AND THE RECEIVERS, the second one always DEPENDING on the first....
To add some social and psychological ideas to logical, mathematical concepts it's not bad...
charity is not inhumane... what's inhumane is thinking charity will be enough when it solely depends on INDIVIDUALISTIC people
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:29 |
The way I see it, if charity could really work on it's own, welfare never would have been created. Also, we would have had free societies where no one was in poverty. Man is selfish. Yes, he shares on occasion, but not all the time. The idea of true communism, an all sharing what's mine is yours environment, can't even work.
Edited by StyLaZyn - August 07 2007 at 14:30
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:30 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
The way I see it, if charity could really work on it's own, welfare never would have been created. Also, we would have had free society's where no one was in poverty. Man is selfish. Yes, he shares on occasion, but not all the time. The idea of true communism, an all sharing what's mine is yours environment, can't even work.
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in the end nothing works, we try for what is best.
How do you know true communism wont work?
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:31 |
Proletariat wrote:
The T wrote:
Yes, but how can you expect to al least help millions of poor people (many not responsible for their poverty) with something so irregular as charity?? You've said it yourself, that example you give of the church, that's great, but that's not charity... The guy does that because it's HIS church, HIS religion... I wonder if that happens in a baptist church or a synagogue or a mosque, will that company will the same job for free? Please, maybe I'm worng so please correct me. The workers, maybe they did it for respect to a religion, for love to God, for whatever.. but sorry friend, even in that case, NOBODY has survived hungry because a church gets repaired... |
Wait never mind I am now ofittially on the side of the T, sorry T that means that you will lose, I lose evry argument on this site However if it makes you feel better your on to somthing |
As much as I disagree with communism and "the revolution of the PROLETARIAT" (  ), I disagree even more with the Cult of The US Dollar.... I happen to think The Third Way is the best...
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:33 |
The T wrote:
Yes, but how can you expect to al least help millions of poor people (many not responsible for their poverty) with something so irregular as charity?? You've said it yourself, that example you give of the church, that's great, but that's not charity... The guy does that because it's HIS church, HIS religion... I wonder if that happens in a baptist church or a synagogue or a mosque, will that company will the same job for free? Please, maybe I'm worng so please correct me. The workers, maybe they did it for respect to a religion, for love to God, for whatever.. but sorry friend, even in that case, NOBODY has survived hungry because a church gets repaired... |
You seem to not understand Catholicism at all. The same guy who's giving several thousand dollar in labor to repair the church, how much do you think he's giving the in weekly collections that go to feeding people? If the man has deep enough religious conviction to repair something as insignificant at the church, why would he be not doing the rest of his Catholic duty towards the missions that really matter?
Don't be cute you know that's not what I'm saying. Of course repairing a church doesn't feed anybody, but people building houses does give people houses. And the same guy working to repair the church is the same guy giving money when elderly people in the neighborhood can't afford some medication, or their heating bills.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:34 |
Proletariat wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
The way I see it, if charity could really work on it's own, welfare never would have been created. Also, we would have had free society's where no one was in poverty. Man is selfish. Yes, he shares on occasion, but not all the time. The idea of true communism, an all sharing what's mine is yours environment, can't even work.
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in the end nothing works, we try for what is best.
How do you know true communism wont work? |
For the same reason charity wouldnt: INDIVIDUALISM, a MARK of the human being....
Also, because tho achive Marx's utopian true communism, society would happen first to undergo socialism, with the dictatorship of the proletariat... once you have any given group (rich, poor, left, right) in a DICTATORSHIP, given FULL POWER, you get TWO classes, hence , THE END OF COMMUNISM....... again, HUMAN NATURE......it's just impossible (and also for million economic reasons)....
Sorry for the caps... help to get points across...
Suddenly I'm kind of in the middle of the battle....
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:34 |
The T wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
The T wrote:
Yes, but how can you expect to al least help millions of poor people (many not responsible for their poverty) with something so irregular as charity?? You've said it yourself, that example you give of the church, that's great, but that's not charity... The guy does that because it's HIS church, HIS religion... I wonder if that happens in a baptist church or a synagogue or a mosque, will that company will the same job for free? Please, maybe I'm worng so please correct me. The workers, maybe they did it for respect to a religion, for love to God, for whatever.. but sorry friend, even in that case, NOBODY has survived hungry because a church gets repaired... |
Wait never mind I am now ofittially on the side of the T, sorry T that means that you will lose, I lose evry argument on this site However if it makes you feel better your on to somthing |
As much as I disagree with communism and "the revolution of the PROLETARIAT" ( ), I disagree even more with the Cult of The US Dollar.... I happen to think The Third Way is the best... |
ha ha i get it.
just for clarification, the third way is the one imbetween me and Equality (lots of numbers) its called moderate socialism right
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:34 |
Proletariat wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
The way I see it, if charity could really work on it's own, welfare never would have been created. Also, we would have had free society's where no one was in poverty. Man is selfish. Yes, he shares on occasion, but not all the time. The idea of true communism, an all sharing what's mine is yours environment, can't even work.
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in the end nothing works, we try for what is best.
How do you know true communism wont work? |
Well, I don't actually. And since I grew up during the Cold War, the idea of communism is bad....very bad, well, as an American. Heck, Jesus was a communist of sorts yet the Christian Church is full of profiteering.
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:36 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
The way I see it, if charity could really work on it's own, welfare never would have been created. Also, we would have had free society's where no one was in poverty. Man is selfish. Yes, he shares on occasion, but not all the time. The idea of true communism, an all sharing what's mine is yours environment, can't even work.
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in the end nothing works, we try for what is best.
How do you know true communism wont work? |
Well, I don't actually. And since I grew up during the Cold War, the idea of communism is bad....very bad, well, as an American. Heck, Jesus was a communist of sorts yet the Christian Church is full of profiteering.
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Thats true, but the christianity church has verry little to do with the Christ part and a lot to do with the ianity part. (dont ask what that is suppost to mean i dont know)
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:37 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
The way I see it, if charity could really work on it's own, welfare never would have been created. Also, we would have had free societies where no one was in poverty. Man is selfish. Yes, he shares on occasion, but not all the time. The idea of true communism, an all sharing what's mine is yours environment, can't even work.
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We've had plenty of free societies where people aren't in poverty. We have socities within the larger U.S. society where people keep others out of poverty. Look at families, or Mormon and Amish conclaves.
Welfare doesn't help people. The reason Welfare needed to be created was because the U.S. was at a point where nobody had money to give in charity. It was created out of the Great Depression where almost everyone needed help.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
|
Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:37 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
The T wrote:
Yes, but how can you expect to al least help millions of poor people (many not responsible for their poverty) with something so irregular as charity?? You've said it yourself, that example you give of the church, that's great, but that's not charity... The guy does that because it's HIS church, HIS religion... I wonder if that happens in a baptist church or a synagogue or a mosque, will that company will the same job for free? Please, maybe I'm worng so please correct me. The workers, maybe they did it for respect to a religion, for love to God, for whatever.. but sorry friend, even in that case, NOBODY has survived hungry because a church gets repaired... |
You seem to not understand Catholicism at all. The same guy who's giving several thousand dollar in labor to repair the church, how much do you think he's giving the in weekly collections that go to feeding people? If the man has deep enough religious conviction to repair something as insignificant at the church, why would he be not doing the rest of his Catholic duty towards the missions that really matter?
Don't be cute you know that's not what I'm saying. Of course repairing a church doesn't feed anybody, but people building houses does give people houses. And the same guy working to repair the church is the same guy giving money when elderly people in the neighborhood can't afford some medication, or their heating bills. |
Man! I'm arguing with BOTH sides now!
I understand CHRISTIANISM (not evangelism, but true a follow-CHRIST-teachings way of thinking).... But why do you think they crucified him in the first place? Not because he said he was the Messiah, but because he was DANGEROUS for the people on top... that's all...
You can't take a one-man's case and turn it into a rule man... you just can't... even if we agree that man is wonderful (he may well be, there are countless people like that here in the US also), do you think we can take him as an example of how every other person is? No... he's an exception to the rule...
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:38 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
The way I see it, if charity could really work on it's own, welfare never would have been created. Also, we would have had free society's where no one was in poverty. Man is selfish. Yes, he shares on occasion, but not all the time. The idea of true communism, an all sharing what's mine is yours environment, can't even work.
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in the end nothing works, we try for what is best.
How do you know true communism wont work? |
Well, I don't actually. And since I grew up during the Cold War, the idea of communism is bad....very bad, well, as an American. Heck, Jesus was a communist of sorts yet the Christian Church is full of profiteering.
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Explain to me some of this profiteering.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
|
Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:39 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
The way I see it, if charity could really work on it's own, welfare never would have been created. Also, we would have had free society's where no one was in poverty. Man is selfish. Yes, he shares on occasion, but not all the time. The idea of true communism, an all sharing what's mine is yours environment, can't even work.
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in the end nothing works, we try for what is best.
How do you know true communism wont work? |
Well, I don't actually. And since I grew up during the Cold War, the idea of communism is bad....very bad, well, as an American. Heck, Jesus was a communist of sorts yet the Christian Church is full of profiteering.
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Don't insult Jesus by saying he belonged to any religion, ideology, cult or whatever.... no communist, no revolutionary, no nothing, he just loved human beings and wanted a better world.... exactly the OPPOSITE of most "isms" who only want to help THEIR OWN
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:40 |
Proletariat wrote:
Thats true, but the christianity church has verry little to do with the Christ part and a lot to do with the ianity part. (dont ask what that is suppost to mean i dont know) |
I hope this doesn't upset anyone.
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." -Mohandas Gandhi
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:41 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
Thats true, but the christianity church has verry little to do with the Christ part and a lot to do with the ianity part. (dont ask what that is suppost to mean i dont know) |
I hope this doesn't upset anyone.
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." -Mohandas Gandhi
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I love that quote!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:41 |
Now THAT's A QUOTE...
But there are great christians.... they actually exist....
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:42 |
The T wrote:
Now THAT's A QUOTE...
But there are great christians.... they actually exist.... |
This is also true, but they are far outnumbered.
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:42 |
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To say that is to spit on the graves of people like Mother Theresa who did as near to the work of Christ that any human could do.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:46 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
The way I see it, if charity could really work on it's own, welfare never would have been created. Also, we would have had free society's where no one was in poverty. Man is selfish. Yes, he shares on occasion, but not all the time. The idea of true communism, an all sharing what's mine is yours environment, can't even work.
|
in the end nothing works, we try for what is best.
How do you know true communism wont work? |
Well, I don't actually. And since I grew up during the Cold War, the idea of communism is bad....very bad, well, as an American. Heck, Jesus was a communist of sorts yet the Christian Church is full of profiteering.
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Explain to me some of this profiteering. |
Maybe that isn't the exact word, but I have first hand account, because I lived next to this preacher. Big beautiful house and very nice cars. He told his congregation that he was struggling to pay his bills and after praying to Jesus, they should assist him because he in turn assists them.
The idea of making money of the name of Jesus, or using Jesus to make money, to me seems extremely hypocritical.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:49 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
To say that is to spit on the graves of people like Mother Theresa who did as near to the work of Christ that any human could do. |
That's true... but you insist on seeing rare-great-exceptions as rules... that's the hole in the logic.... there was only ONE Mother Teresa...
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