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StyLaZyn 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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 Posted: August 07 2007 at 13:46 |
 Proletariat wrote:
NaturalScience wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
a mission of bringing people out of poverty, to spill myself out in order to help another, the opposite of capitalism and completelly outside of any corrupt organization religion or government. |
This is interesting. Bringing people out of poverty is a noble goal. How do you propose to go about it?
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by allowing people to funnel their money posestions and hard work to the areas that need it most, not as a government but as a personal choise, obviously it wont solve the problem, but its better than sitting back and waiting for elected offitials to do it. |
Guess what? Unless you as a parent preach and set example, you can't expect the ball to keep rolling this way.
Regardless, the noble cause would get lost in the need for personal possession in the American way of life. American TV commercials repeat the call for spending; say you need this, you need that, we have it, you need to buy it. And you need it now! We put ourselves into debt using other people's money. Do you really think we want to help someone of our own giving, repeatedly?
Edited by StyLaZyn - August 07 2007 at 13:49
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 13:47 |
thellama73 wrote:
I like this thread.  Thank you all for such a good discussion. |
Thanks for contributing; It's nice not being the only pro-capitalist.
Aren't political discussion just the best 
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 13:50 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
NaturalScience wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
a mission of bringing people out of poverty, to spill myself out in order to help another, the opposite of capitalism and completelly outside of any corrupt organization religion or government. |
This is interesting. Bringing people out of poverty is a noble goal. How do you propose to go about it?
|
by allowing people to funnel their money posestions and hard work to the areas that need it most, not as a government but as a personal choise, obviously it wont solve the problem, but its better than sitting back and waiting for elected offitials to do it. |
Guess what? Unless you as a parent preach and set example, you can't expect the ball to keep rolling this way.
Regardless, the noble cause would get lost in the need for personal possession in the American way of life. American TV commercials repeat the call for speading; say you need this, you need that, we have it, you need to buy it. And you need it now! We put ourselves into debt using other people's money. Do you really think we want to help someone of our own giving, repeatedly?
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There's nothing wrong with having things and wanting things. You can want a big screen TV and be giving away your time and money to help others at the sametime. They're not mutually exclusive.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 13:54 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
NaturalScience wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
a mission of bringing people out of poverty, to spill myself out in order to help another, the opposite of capitalism and completelly outside of any corrupt organization religion or government. |
This is interesting. Bringing people out of poverty is a noble goal. How do you propose to go about it?
|
by allowing people to funnel their money posestions and hard work to the areas that need it most, not as a government but as a personal choise, obviously it wont solve the problem, but its better than sitting back and waiting for elected offitials to do it. |
Guess what? Unless you as a parent preach and set example, you can't expect the ball to keep rolling this way.
Regardless, the noble cause would get lost in the need for personal possession in the American way of life. American TV commercials repeat the call for spending; say you need this, you need that, we have it, you need to buy it. And you need it now! We put ourselves into debt using other people's money. Do you really think we want to help someone of our own giving, repeatedly?
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There's nothing wrong with having things and wanting things. You can want a big screen TV and be giving away your time and money to help others at the sametime. They're not mutually exclusive. |
I agree. But when you start to see you neighbor on welfare with a TV bigger than yours, you begin to want to keep your money for yourself.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:00 |
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That's why welfare doesn't work and private charity does.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:04 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
That's why welfare doesn't work and private charity does. |
Would it? Really? How much charity would it take to equal welfare? Since welfare is ripped from our paychecks, where will the money come from? Hell, I'm saving for a BMW. I need every penny.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:11 |
The money will come from people. The Welfare payments won't be forced out of your paycheck; you'll have that extra money if you chose not to partake in charity. Many people chose to give to charity despite paying out welfare. Many will give more knowing that there's no welfare system. Many who did not give before because they felt they're already giving will start to give.
Private charities have the benefits that government programs don't. They're personal. They focus on the needs of the people rather than throwing money at them, and the inefficient and corrupt ones fail and are weeded out.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:13 |
Proletariat wrote:
This thread bores me, Im done...
... until a new argument comes up |
That's too bad. I thought this might lead to an interesting discussion. Oh well.
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:14 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
The money will come from people. The Welfare payments won't be forced out of your paycheck; you'll have that extra money if you chose not to partake in charity. Many people chose to give to charity despite paying out welfare. Many will give more knowing that there's no welfare system. Many who did not give before because they felt they're already giving will start to give.
Private charities have the benefits that government programs don't. They're personal. They focus on the needs of the people rather than throwing money at them, and the inefficient and corrupt ones fail and are weeded out. |
I would really like to believe that. If people were inherently like that, the concept of tithing would never have been created.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:14 |
I wouldn't agree with that. A society based on private charity will turn into a class-divided society.... or maybe that's the goal of some... I don't agree.
Even to the psych of the receiver, it is better to know you're getting your government's help than some rich guy's "mercy"....
But I understand, it's all based on american individualism.... And from that point of view, as inhumane as it may look, the logic is perfect.
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:16 |
NaturalScience wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
This thread bores me, Im done...
... until a new argument comes up |
That's too bad. I thought this might lead to an interesting discussion. Oh well.
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My friend uses the argument of "boring" when he is losing a battle. But I'm sure this is not the case with Proletariat. 
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:17 |
NaturalScience wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
This thread bores me, Im done...
... until a new argument comes up |
That's too bad. I thought this might lead to an interesting discussion. Oh well.
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I read back at some of your posts. If what you mean is that you just want to travel to poorer countries and help any way you can, be it building homes, teaching, etc. then I admire you and wish you the best of luck.
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:18 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
NaturalScience wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
This thread bores me, Im done...
... until a new argument comes up |
That's too bad. I thought this might lead to an interesting discussion. Oh well.
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My friend uses the argument of "boring" when he is losing a battle. But I'm sure this is not the case with Proletariat. |
I lose every battle I get into on this site. But really, im not a huge fan of battles (unless talking about the band in wich case I think they should be added to the site this verry instant)
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:20 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
The money will come from people. The Welfare payments won't be forced out of your paycheck; you'll have that extra money if you chose not to partake in charity. Many people chose to give to charity despite paying out welfare. Many will give more knowing that there's no welfare system. Many who did not give before because they felt they're already giving will start to give.
Private charities have the benefits that government programs don't. They're personal. They focus on the needs of the people rather than throwing money at them, and the inefficient and corrupt ones fail and are weeded out. |
I would really like to believe that. If people were inherently like that, the concept of tithing would never have been created.
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People are really like that. Look at all the money given to charities and all the community service people do. When I was in Texas earlier this year with Habitat for Humanity we were expecting about 30 people at our site of volunteers from my school, AmeriCorp, and the Habitat workers themselves. We had about 70 people there who had travelled down because they heard about what was going on. One lady who ended up staying with us took a week off from work at the drop of a dime and drove down from D.C. to Texas without so much as a hotel reservation to come help. Nearly all of the building materials and even some installation labor was comped by locally businesses.
Just a few months ago my Church's steps were deemed out of code and would need several thousands dollars to repair it. A member who owned a construction company planned on doing all the repairs at his own expense. His workers heard what the job was for and refused to be paid for it by him.
Charity is real and it isn't from a small group of determined people. It's widespread. The world may be dark and ugly at times, and that is certainly what gets the media attention, but that's not all there is to it.
Edited by Equality 7-2521 - August 07 2007 at 14:21
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:22 |
Proletariat wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
NaturalScience wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
This thread bores me, Im done...
... until a new argument comes up |
That's too bad. I thought this might lead to an interesting discussion. Oh well.
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My friend uses the argument of "boring" when he is losing a battle. But I'm sure this is not the case with Proletariat. |
I lose every battle I get into on this site. But really, im not a huge fan of battles (unless talking about the band in wich case I think they should be added to the site this verry instant) |
I certainly hope that is not the case. But like my dad used to say, if you get in a fight and you are losing, make sure you get one good punch in. That will make them remember you and respect you.
There is a pseudo-battle of the bands occuring in "Just for Fun". The Band Elimination Thread.
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:23 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
The money will come from people. The Welfare payments won't be forced out of your paycheck; you'll have that extra money if you chose not to partake in charity. Many people chose to give to charity despite paying out welfare. Many will give more knowing that there's no welfare system. Many who did not give before because they felt they're already giving will start to give.
Private charities have the benefits that government programs don't. They're personal. They focus on the needs of the people rather than throwing money at them, and the inefficient and corrupt ones fail and are weeded out. |
I would really like to believe that. If people were inherently like that, the concept of tithing would never have been created.
|
People are really like that. Look at all the money given to charities and all the community service people do. When I was in Texas earlier this year with Habitat for Humanity we were expecting about 30 people at our site of volunteers from my school, AmeriCorp, and the Habitat workers themselves. We had about 70 people there who had travelled down because they heard about what was going on. One lady who ended up staying with us took a week off from work at the drop of a dime and drove down from D.C. to Texas without so much as a hotel reservation to come help. Nearly all of the building materials and even some installation labor was comped by locally businesses.
Just a few months ago my Church's steps were deemed out of code and would need several thousands dollars to repair it. A member who owned a construction company planned on doing all the repairs at his own expense. His workers heard what the job was for and refused to be paid for it by him.
Charity is real and it isn't from a small group of determined people. It's widespread. The world may be dark and ugly at times, and that is certainly what gets the media attention, but that's not all there is to it. |
holly he*l I actually agree with Equality (lots of numbers) I must be going mad.
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:23 |
The T wrote:
I wouldn't agree with that. A society based on private charity will turn into a class-divided society.... or maybe that's the goal of some... I don't agree.
Even to the psych of the receiver, it is better to know you're getting your government's help than some rich guy's "mercy"....
But I understand, it's all based on american individualism.... And from that point of view, as inhumane as it may look, the logic is perfect. |
So it's better to recieve charity stolen from people who don't want to give it than from genuinly altruistic people who do?
How would a society based on private charity turn into a class-divided one? People helping each other will result in divisions of class?
And what is inhumane about charity? Isn't that the opposite of inhumane?
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:24 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
The money will come from people. The Welfare payments won't be forced out of your paycheck; you'll have that extra money if you chose not to partake in charity. Many people chose to give to charity despite paying out welfare. Many will give more knowing that there's no welfare system. Many who did not give before because they felt they're already giving will start to give.
Private charities have the benefits that government programs don't. They're personal. They focus on the needs of the people rather than throwing money at them, and the inefficient and corrupt ones fail and are weeded out. |
I would really like to believe that. If people were inherently like that, the concept of tithing would never have been created.
|
People are really like that. Look at all the money given to charities and all the community service people do. When I was in Texas earlier this year with Habitat for Humanity we were expecting about 30 people at our site of volunteers from my school, AmeriCorp, and the Habitat workers themselves. We had about 70 people there who had travelled down because they heard about what was going on. One lady who ended up staying with us took a week off from work at the drop of a dime and drove down from D.C. to Texas without so much as a hotel reservation to come help. Nearly all of the building materials and even some installation labor was comped by locally businesses.
Just a few months ago my Church's steps were deemed out of code and would need several thousands dollars to repair it. A member who owned a construction company planned on doing all the repairs at his own expense. His workers heard what the job was for and refused to be paid for it by him.
Charity is real and it isn't from a small group of determined people. It's widespread. The world may be dark and ugly at times, and that is certainly what gets the media attention, but that's not all there is to it. |
I won't disagree with you but without religion, it wouldn't happen. That is my personal feeling. I can't speak for the world participating in social charity. I have never heard of it outside the US.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:25 |
Yes, but how can you expect to al least help millions of poor people (many not responsible for their poverty) with something so irregular as charity??  You've said it yourself, that example you give of the church, that's great, but that's not charity... The guy does that because it's HIS church, HIS religion... I wonder if that happens in a baptist church or a synagogue or a mosque, will that company will the same job for free? Please, maybe I'm worng so please correct me. The workers, maybe they did it for respect to a religion, for love to God, for whatever.. but sorry friend, even in that case, NOBODY has survived hungry because a church gets repaired...
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 14:27 |
The T wrote:
Yes, but how can you expect to al least help millions of poor people (many not responsible for their poverty) with something so irregular as charity?? You've said it yourself, that example you give of the church, that's great, but that's not charity... The guy does that because it's HIS church, HIS religion... I wonder if that happens in a baptist church or a synagogue or a mosque, will that company will the same job for free? Please, maybe I'm worng so please correct me. The workers, maybe they did it for respect to a religion, for love to God, for whatever.. but sorry friend, even in that case, NOBODY has survived hungry because a church gets repaired... |
Wait never mind I am now ofittially on the side of the T, sorry T that means that you will lose, I lose evry argument on this site  However if it makes you feel better your on to somthing
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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