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The Wizard 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 18 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 7341
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 Posted: December 24 2006 at 18:17 |
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TRoTZ
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 25 2004
Location: Portugal
Status: Offline
Points: 35
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Posted: December 24 2006 at 18:18 |
I couldn't agree more with you The Miracle
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: December 24 2006 at 18:18 |
 TRoTZ wrote:
Stonebeard, What I wanted to say was "shouldn't progressive be really progressive, as the word says?" |
Well, yeah, that's what I thought you meant. I wasn't getting up in a mess because of the grammar, but rather the repeated notion that progressive has to be something new. Yeah, that's what the word literally means and that's what it was applied to prog acts of the 60s and 70s, but music has covered such a wide ground since then, I have no idea to what music possibly could progress to next. To me, endlessly combining two or however many sperate genres together (for a ficticious example: hip-hop, long songs, Sleepytime Gorilla Museum) does not equal prog. To me, prog is only an adjective that describes certain apects of the music, with nothing related to a "forward-thinking" outlook on music.
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Drew
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2005
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 12600
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Posted: December 24 2006 at 18:19 |
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1 star? (Still amazed)
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: December 24 2006 at 18:20 |
Not plagiarized, but this sentence shows your bias:
"The biggest problem with the album is not the endless references to classic prog we have all heard, it's that it's simply a bad album."
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Mikerinos
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Planet Gong
Status: Offline
Points: 8890
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Posted: December 24 2006 at 18:21 |
The Miracle wrote:
Bluesaga wrote:
I don't understand how any open-minded fan of Progressive Rock can give Paradox Hotel a 1 star. It's fairly accessible prog music with no blatant plagiarism. I can't even think of one prog album I'd give that to (except maybe Ummagumma, but the Live album makes up for the horrible studio album). And I doubt you listened to it 10 times; if someone thinks an album is THAT BAD, they probably won't listen to it more than 3 times, if that. |
If you're giving Ummagumma 1 star, you should also be giving one star to half of all avant prog and kraut in existence, which isn't that open minded
Personally it's my favorite PF album.
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Absolutely not. I like Hoyry-Kone, Alamaailman Vasarat, Taal, Dun, Magma, and some others as far as avant goes. I haven't heard too much krautrock yet (other genres I've rather investigate), but I like Ash Ra Tempel and would like to check out Amon Duul II along with some more obscure bands that sound more interesting to me than the typical Can/Neu!/Faust recommended krautrock. Ummagumma studio side just sounds bad to me, doesn't mean I dislike any subgenre as a whole (except perhaps pure noise music, but since I haven't heard all of it I can't truely say).
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The Wizard
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 18 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 7341
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Posted: December 24 2006 at 18:22 |
stonebeard wrote:
Not plagiarized, but this sentence shows your bias:
"The biggest problem with the album is not the endless references to classic prog we have all heard, it's that it's simply a bad album." |
Exactly. I'm not saying the albums problem is not it's 'plagarism' but it's poor quality.
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Drew
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2005
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 12600
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Posted: December 24 2006 at 18:22 |
Im pretty sure I speak for many FK fans here- how can you not at least give it 2 stars? (which is for fans of that band ONLY) I would like you to find some others who like the FK- but do not like Paradox Hotel. Your out of your friggin' mind. 
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progismylife
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2006
Location: ibreathehelium
Status: Offline
Points: 15535
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Posted: December 24 2006 at 18:23 |
The only TFK song I have, I like a lot. Might have to get an album contrary to the opinion of the wiz kid over here. 
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The Miracle
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: hell
Status: Offline
Points: 28427
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Posted: December 24 2006 at 18:24 |
Bluesaga wrote:
The Miracle wrote:
Bluesaga wrote:
I don't understand how any open-minded fan of Progressive Rock can give Paradox Hotel a 1 star. It's fairly accessible prog music with no blatant plagiarism. I can't even think of one prog album I'd give that to (except maybe Ummagumma, but the Live album makes up for the horrible studio album). And I doubt you listened to it 10 times; if someone thinks an album is THAT BAD, they probably won't listen to it more than 3 times, if that. |
If you're giving Ummagumma 1 star, you should also be giving one star to half of all avant prog and kraut in existence, which isn't that open minded
Personally it's my favorite PF album.
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Absolutely not. I like Hoyry-Kone, Alamaailman Vasarat, Taal, Dun, Magma, and some others as far as avant goes. I haven't heard too much krautrock yet (other genres I've rather investigate), but I like Ash Ra Tempel and would like to check out Amon Duul II along with some more obscure bands that sound more interesting to me than the typical Can/Neu!/Faust recommended krautrock.
Ummagumma studio side just sounds bad to me, doesn't mean I dislike any subgenre as a whole (except perhaps pure noise music, but since I haven't heard all of it I can't truely say).
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Can/Neu/Faust and the likes is what I'm talking about... and they make up about half of all kraut on this site. The other half is calmer electronic stuff. All a matter of taste I guess...
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progismylife
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2006
Location: ibreathehelium
Status: Offline
Points: 15535
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Posted: December 24 2006 at 18:26 |
The Wizard wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
Not plagiarized, but this sentence shows your bias:
"The biggest problem with the album is not the endless references to classic prog we have all heard, it's that it's simply a bad album." |
Exactly. I'm not saying the albums problem is not it's 'plagarism' but it's poor quality. |
But you fail to show the poor quality. You just talk about its a failure.
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The Miracle
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: hell
Status: Offline
Points: 28427
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Posted: December 24 2006 at 18:27 |
Drew wrote:
Im pretty sure I speak for many FK fans here- how can you not at least give it 2 stars? (which is for fans of that band ONLY) I would like you to find some others who like the FK- but do not like Paradox Hotel. Your out of your friggin' mind. |
That's exactly the point - 2 stars stands for collectors/fans only... compared to the other TFK albums and all modern symphonic prog that's an excellent album, which I;m sure fans of the band and the genre will like. There are very few one-star albums(I don't have a single one-star review), and Paradox Hotel just isn't one.
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TRoTZ
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 25 2004
Location: Portugal
Status: Offline
Points: 35
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Posted: December 24 2006 at 18:28 |
stonebeard wrote:
TRoTZ wrote:
Stonebeard, What I wanted to say was "shouldn't progressive be really progressive, as the word says?" |
Well, yeah, that's what I thought you meant. I wasn't getting up in a mess because of the grammar, but rather the repeated notion that progressive has to be something new. Yeah, that's what the word literally means and that's what it was applied to prog acts of the 60s and 70s, but music has covered such a wide ground since then, I have no idea to what music possibly could progress to next. To me, endlessly combining two or however many sperate genres together (for a ficticious example: hip-hop, long songs, Sleepytime Gorilla Museum) does not equal prog. To me, prog is only an adjective that describes certain apects of the music, with nothing related to a "forward-thinking" outlook on music. |
Yes, I agree mostly with you Stonebeard, though I have a more "forward-thinking" about prog. Don't get me wrong. I only see that, many times, people praise to much these albuns. I'm not criticizing its existence. In fact, they are quite untertaining, though I still think that, accepting it can be questionable, Flower Kings don't give the necessary deepness to music. And so, for not being neither original neither feeled, for much great compositions the album has it still lacks almost all.
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Mikerinos
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Planet Gong
Status: Offline
Points: 8890
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Posted: December 24 2006 at 18:28 |
The Miracle wrote:
Bluesaga wrote:
The Miracle wrote:
Bluesaga wrote:
I don't understand how any open-minded fan of Progressive Rock can give Paradox Hotel a 1 star. It's fairly accessible prog music with no blatant plagiarism. I can't even think of one prog album I'd give that to (except maybe Ummagumma, but the Live album makes up for the horrible studio album). And I doubt you listened to it 10 times; if someone thinks an album is THAT BAD, they probably won't listen to it more than 3 times, if that. |
If you're giving Ummagumma 1 star, you should also be giving one star to half of all avant prog and kraut in existence, which isn't that open minded
Personally it's my favorite PF album.
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Absolutely not. I like Hoyry-Kone, Alamaailman Vasarat, Taal, Dun, Magma, and some others as far as avant goes. I haven't heard too much krautrock yet (other genres I've rather investigate), but I like Ash Ra Tempel and would like to check out Amon Duul II along with some more obscure bands that sound more interesting to me than the typical Can/Neu!/Faust recommended krautrock.
Ummagumma studio side just sounds bad to me, doesn't mean I dislike any subgenre as a whole (except perhaps pure noise music, but since I haven't heard all of it I can't truely say).
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Can/Neu/Faust and the likes is what I'm talking about... and they make up about half of all kraut on this site. The other half is calmer electronic stuff. All a matter of taste I guess...
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Well I liked the Can and Neu! samples (forget what I thought of Faust), but it just wasn't enough to persuade me to buy anything. You really can't call me close-minded because I'm not crazy about electronic music. At least I don't claim to hate it all (like some people say with punk )
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Drew
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2005
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 12600
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Posted: December 24 2006 at 18:29 |
The Miracle wrote:
Drew wrote:
Im pretty sure I speak for many FK fans here- how can you not at least give it 2 stars? (which is for fans of that band ONLY) I would like you to find some others who like the FK- but do not like Paradox Hotel. Your out of your friggin' mind. |
That's exactly the point - 2 stars stands for collectors/fans only... compared to the other TFK albums and all modern symphonic prog that's an excellent album, which I;m sure fans of the band and the genre will like. There are very few one-star albums(I don't have a single one-star review), and Paradox Hotel just isn't one. |
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The Wizard
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 18 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 7341
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Posted: December 24 2006 at 18:29 |
Drew wrote:
Im pretty sure I speak for many FK fans here- how can you not at least give it 2 stars? (which is for fans of that band ONLY) I would like you to find some others who like the FK- but do not like Paradox Hotel. Your out of your friggin' mind. |
If you think about it, don't you have to be a fan of the band to give that rating?
Paradox Hotel is the only Flower Kings album I have heard. I knew very little about the band when I purchased and later listened to the album several times with a open mind. I had no preconcieved notions when I developed my opinion, and I put the opinions of no one, whether positive or negative into account.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: December 24 2006 at 18:32 |
About TFK being all about copying (or being highly influenced at least) byt the likes of Yes, KC, and GG, one thing that seperates TFK from these bands (not so much GG, but most symphonic prog bands in general) is their sense of playfulness. Come on, "Minor Giant Steps," while not groundbreaking, is a fun, spirited song. If you look at my last.fm chart, you can see TFK doesn't even break my top 10 bands, but I can at least respect them for what they are.
I want to ask a question: if Yes released an album exactly like Paradox Hotel with Jon Anderson singing instead of Roine, would it still be so bad?
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The Miracle
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: hell
Status: Offline
Points: 28427
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Posted: December 24 2006 at 18:32 |
Bluesaga wrote:
Well I liked the Can and Neu! samples (forget what I thought of Faust), but it just wasn't enough to persuade me to buy anything. You really can't call me close-minded because I'm not crazy about electronic music. At least I don't claim to hate it all (like some people say with punk )
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I have some Faust and Can and it's all orgasmic... I have a very high avant tolerance level. Ambient Electronic stuff is actually some of the most avant garde music out there, with no structure, no melody, just harmony and inner beauty. Certainly not to everyone's taste. I don't claim to hate any prog sub genre either, in fact I claim that I like them all. I'm talking about open mindness towards prog
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The Wizard
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 18 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 7341
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Posted: December 24 2006 at 18:35 |
stonebeard wrote:
About TFK being all about copying (or being highly influenced at least) byt the likes of Yes, KC, and GG, one thing that seperates TFK from these bands (not so much GG, but most symphonic prog bands in general) is their sense of playfulness. Come on, "Minor Giant Steps," while not groundbreaking, is a fun, spirited song. If you look at my last.fm chart, you can see TFK doesn't even break my top 10 bands, but I can at least respect them for what they are.
I want to ask a question: if Yes released an album exactly like Paradox Hotel with Jon Anderson singing instead of Roine, would it still be so bad? |
Yes.
The thing I'm trying to say in my review is that once again, I don't dislike the album for it's like classic prog. I dislike it becuase it's poorly made. I think a lot of you are having trouble understanding that.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: December 24 2006 at 18:36 |
The Wizard wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
About TFK being all about copying (or being highly influenced at least) byt the likes of Yes, KC, and GG, one thing that seperates TFK from these bands (not so much GG, but most symphonic prog bands in general) is their sense of playfulness. Come on, "Minor Giant Steps," while not groundbreaking, is a fun, spirited song. If you look at my last.fm chart, you can see TFK doesn't even break my top 10 bands, but I can at least respect them for what they are.
I want to ask a question: if Yes released an album exactly like Paradox Hotel with Jon Anderson singing instead of Roine, would it still be so bad? |
Yes.
The thing I'm trying to say in my review is that once again, I don't dislike the album for it's like classic prog. I dislike it becuase it's poorly made. I think a lot of you are having trouble understanding that. |
I know you feel that way. I wasn't asking you directly.
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Why many people dislike The Flower Kings
