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jalas 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 07 2006
Location: United States
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Points: 283
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 Posted: November 30 2006 at 19:44 |
 Peter Rideout wrote:
jalas wrote:
I have thought about it for a while now, and since global warming is very real, I guess I'll just move to Canada. |
Leave your guns stateside though, eh?  |
Don't worry. I hate guns.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19557
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Posted: November 30 2006 at 19:59 |
Forgotten Son wrote:
Ivan,
I did spend a huge amount of time replying to you response in detail, but, frustratingly, my post was lost when I hit the "post reply" button. 
I will do my best to sum up my views on this matter succinctly, instead.
I in no way advocate or excuse Soviet or Cuban crimes, they are indeed terrible, but the US has a far worse history of aggression and state-sponsored terrorism than both of them put together. The US may have done a lot of good in the world, particularly around the Second World War in defeating the Nazis and deterring Stalinist Russia, however the vast majority of US foreign policy is undertaken for the benefits of America's ruling class. Millions of people have died as the cost of furthering US global interests. The idea that the US loves democracy is absurd, it has frequently suppressed populist movements and replaced them with oppressive regimes after devastating the country in question eg Haiti. It has even gone as far as supporting genocide to follow it's interests.
I cannot sit by uncritical, buying into all the propoganda issued forth by a state so destructive and hypocritical, even if it did help defeat great threats in the past.
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I believe the cold numbers speak for themselve:
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The arrest of Pinochet in 2000 brings up the issue of which other leaders should be or should have been tried for atrocities committed during their rule. Here is a tentative list of modern dictators (and assorted mass murderers) and the estimated number of people killed by their orders (excluding armies they were formally at war with). In Stalin's and Mao's cases, one has to decide how to consider the millions who died indirectly because of their political decisions. The Chinese cultural revolution caused the death of 30 million people (source: the current Chinese government), but many died of hunger. Stalin is responsible for the death of 17 million Russians, but only half a million were killed by his order. Khomeini sent children to die in the war against Iraq, but it was a war, so they are not counted here. The worst genocide of recent times was committed by many hutus, not just by their leader. Needless to say, I make a big distinction between killing soldiers and killing civilians. The US killed three million people in Vietnam, but the vast majority were either regulars of north vietnam or vietcongs. I don't count those as victims of atrocity. When American presidents decided to bomb the rice fields in North Vietnam, knowing that they would only kill women and children, those are counted as genocide. (Read the end of this page for why the nuclear bombs are not considered genocide).
| Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69) |
49,000,000 ("great leap forward" and "cultural revolution") |
| Jozef Stalin (USSR, 1934-39) |
13,000,000 (the purges) |
| Adolf Hitler (Germany, 1939-1945) |
12,000,000 (concentration camps and civilians WWII) |
| Pol Pot (Cambodia, 1975-79) |
1,700,000 |
| Kim Il Sung (North Korea, 1948-94) |
1.6 million (purges and concentration camps) |
| Menghistu (Ethiopia, 1975-78) |
1,500,000 |
| Ismail Enver (Turkey, 1915) |
1,200,000 Armenians |
| Yakubu Gowon (Biafra, 1967-1970) |
1,000,000 |
| Leonid Brezhnev (Afghanistan, 1979-1982) |
900,000 |
| Jean Kambanda (Rwanda, 1994) |
800,000 |
| Suharto (East Timor, 1976-98) |
600,000 |
| Saddam Hussein (Iran 1980-1990 and Kurdistan 1987-88) |
600,000 |
| Yahya Khan (Pakistan, 1971) vs Bangladesh |
500,000 |
| Fumimaro Konoe (Japan, 1937-39) |
500,000? (Chinese civilians) |
| Savimbi (Angola, 1975-2002) |
400,000 |
| Mullah Omar - Taliban (Afghanistan, 1986-2001) |
400,000 |
| Idi Amin (Uganda, 1969-1979) |
300,000 |
| Benito Mussolini (Ethiopia, 1936; Yugoslavia, WWII) |
300,000 |
| Mobutu Sese Seko (Zaire, 1965-97) |
? |
| Charles Taylor (Liberia, 1989-1996) |
220,000 |
| Foday Sankoh (Sierra Leone, 1991-2000) |
200,000 |
| Slobodan Milosevic (Yugoslavia, 1992-96) |
180,000 |
| Michel Micombero (Burundi, 1972) |
150,000 |
| Hassan Turabi (Sudan, 1989-1999) |
100,000 |
| Jean-Bedel Bokassa (Centrafrica, 1966-79) |
? |
| Richard Nixon (Vietnam, 1969-1974) |
70,000 (vietnamese civilians) |
| Efrain Rios Montt (Guatemala, 1982-83) |
70,000 |
| Papa Doc Duvalier (Haiti, 1957-71) |
60,000 |
| Hissene Habre (Chad, 1982-1990) |
40,000 |
| Chiang Kai-shek (Taiwan, 1947) |
30,000 (popular uprising) |
| Vladimir Ilich Lenin (USSR, 1917-20) |
30,000 (dissidents executed) |
| Francisco Franco (Spain) |
30,000 (dissidents executed after the civil war) |
| Fidel Castro (Cuba, 1959-1999) |
30,000 |
| Lyndon Johnson (Vietnam, 1963-1968) |
30,000 |
| Hafez Al-Assad (Syria, 1980-2000) |
25,000 |
| Khomeini (Iran, 1979-89) |
20,000 |
| Guy Mollet (France, 1956-1957) |
10,000 (war in Algeria) |
| Paul Koroma (Sierra Leone, 1997) |
6,000 |
| Osama Bin Laden (worldwide, 1993-2001) |
3,500 |
| Augusto Pinochet (Chile, 1973) |
3,000 |
| Rafael Videla (Argentina, 1976-83) |
3,000 |
| Al Zarqawi (Iraq, 2004-06) |
2,000 |
(Note: the crimes committed by right-wing dictators have always been easier to track down than the crimes against humanity committed by communist leaders, so the figures for communist leaders like Stalin and Mao increase almost yearly as new secret documents become available. To this day, the Chinese government has not yet disclosed how many people were executed by Mao's red guards during the Cultural Revolution and how many people were killed in Tibet during the Chinese invasion of 1950. We also don't know how many dissidents have been killed by order of Kim Il Sung in North Korea, although presumably many thousands).
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It's true that numbers are not 100% exact because Pinochet easilly goes too 10,000 counting the missing but that happens also with people who died in prison in Communist countries or the dissapeared.
But the numbers of China, USSR and Cambodia among others are terrifying and of course nothing USA did compares with this.
Iván
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Atkingani
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: October 21 2005
Location: Terra Brasilis
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Points: 12288
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Posted: November 30 2006 at 20:16 |
In the case of Argentina, the number is much greater, probably ten times the informed. I think also the numbers for Pinochet are minimized by 3 or 4, maybe 5.
The numbers for Johnson and Nixon for Vietnam are greater too (certainly more than 500,000, due to the bombings, orange agent, etc).
I don't know Iván, you know I share many thoughts with you but this list is biased IMO.
Edited by Atkingani - November 30 2006 at 20:17
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Guigo
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jalas
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 07 2006
Location: United States
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Points: 283
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Posted: November 30 2006 at 20:24 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
jalas wrote:
Sasquamo wrote:
So jalas, if democracy doesn't work, give me a real life example of a type of government that does work. |
There is no government that works. Government is created and run by humans. Humans make mistakes and we can't just sit back and accept any decision that governments make. we can't because nationalists and be all patriotic about our countries. Thats where the leaders get their control. That is why Hitler was so successful. He got almost everyone in Germany to believe that the Jews were a problem so when the Jews were being persecuted and put into ghettos, few said anything of the inhumanity.
I will take the liberty of replying for Sasquamo:
READ HIS POST!!!!!!!!!!
SASQUAMO TALKS ABOUT SYSTEM (A deytermined idelology that each Government follows) AND YOU'RE REPLYING HIM ABOUT GOVERNMENTS (The group of men that was elected or imposed to rule a country). two different concepts, a Government may faill despite the system that follows.
No system is perfect, Democracy is the worst system except for all the others, but it has worked in many places:
- A President or Pruime Minister is elected by the votes of the citizens.
- The President or Prime Minister (The second elected by the majority of the Parliament elected by the people) are elected for a certain period of time or until a determined situation happens (In the case of the Prime Minister, his party looses the majority).
- At the end of his period, the President is re-elected or leaves his place and in the case of the Prime Minister,m he resigns before he's being changed.
That's all Democracy is about, if it works....then Democracy works despite how cruel, stupid or great is the President or the Prime Minister.
Socialism doesn't work, normally ends with a Dictator that keeps the power for himself until he dies, supported by a central Government.
Read the post again. It does ask about government.
Ivan, could you please stop putting words in my mouth? I accept that socialism doesn't completely work and just because I say that democracy doesn't always work doesn't mean I hate it.
Sorry, you first said:
| This is why democracy works. It works for the greedy who are always there waiting to see who they are going to devour next. |
It works for a minority. It does work but not for what it's intended for.
Then you insisted:
| true democracy is also a lost cause but it seems like it works, but at the expense of many lives |
And?
And again:
| all the good that has come out of this country will never bring back all the lives that have been lost unjustly for the sake of democracy. I don't hate democracy, but I know it's easily corruptible so that's why I prefer socialism. |
If you don't hate democracy....then you perform a great act because your words are from a person who hates democracy.
In your opinion. You don't know me. Why can't there be a middle ground?
It is just that in the wrong hands, as it is always in, it is easily corruptible. In the US, people don't have much to complain about, but to keep the country stable, many people have to be exploited or killed in this country and in other parts of the world. I don't want to stop and start praising my country. It's not about me. IT's about all the victims of US policy. Everyone has a right to be happy, and I know that not everyone will ever be happy, but There are too many people who are unneccessarily unhappy.
You said the magical word USA POLICY...the system works, the humans sometimes and sometimes not.
If you disagree with the current USA policy....go when the time comes and vote for the Democrats or an independant movement.
Republicans and Democrats cancel each other out. The only Reason I voted for Democrats in these mid-term election was to take God out of the White House. He doesn't belong in worldly things. Also, Independent candidates have no chance since incumbents have so many priveledges. The don't pay for stamps and their party pays for the campaigns. Also, the only independents that run and have a chance are the ones that can afford it. This means that they are rich and they don't understand the plight of the working man, whether it's here or in another country.
I am not a militant person. I am just asking for a compromise. You have to be willing to see things from my point of view before you say anything else.
Sorry, but your point of view has caused that my country is so poor, Capitralism is bad, ok lets assume that:
- With a democratic Government we were the first country in the world insea products, Saint Velazco f the poor, entered to the Government woith the tanks, threw away the foreign fishing companies...now we don't appear in the list of the top 100.
- With a democratic Government we were the fitrst country in the world in potato production...San Velazco of the poor came, made his Reforma Agraria shouting "The land is foir those who work it", six months after that, we were importing potato from Czechoslovaquia. Yes Perú wrere potato was born
- In a democratic government, the unenployed rate was bellow 15%....San Velazco came and now we have 50% at least of unemployed people.
So don't want to see the things from the Socialist point of view, we had enough of that.
Well, I'm tired of democracy, but I am willing to accept that some aspects of it work. It's all about checks and balances.
I have to be exposed to your point of view all the time. Not from you directly, but from CNN and Fox News ( the trusted names in news in America. [ha]).
At least you have news, Communist and Socialist Governments are not famous for their tolerance of free speech, if not ask Valladares or Sojenitzhin who wpent their lives in Cuban Prison and The Guulag for writtig POEMS.
Yeah, bias news. They say very little about the war in Iraq now in the news. We might as well have no news at all. There's no room for reasoning in American news.
I don't think their is a wrong side. ON one side is anyone who believes in democracy. The best part about democracy is the freedom to make as much money as you can. I don't have a problem with that as long as no one gets hurt
To live where you want, to wroite what you want, to believe in the God you want, etc.
apart from living where I want, the other rights you mentioned are natural rights that no laws can take away from me. I'm not afraid to die for what I believe. When it come to living, I say whatever. The poor are moved around uncontiously all the time as rich people raise the prices of living in poor areas. They make it impossible for the poor to live, they move, the rich people buy their houses, knock them down and build some hotel or shopping mall or other facility for the rich. Since it's uncotious, few people notice it who are not affected.
On the other side, we have socialists who think that money should be distributed for the common good.
Yeah  , Fidel Castro, Daniel Ortega or the Politboureau members lived as dirty Capitalists travelling all the world while the people in their countries was starving,
They distribute the money yes, but among the hiigh members of the oparty, ask the girl who studied 5 years to be an engeneer and cleaned my toilet in the hotel of Varadero for 149 opesos a month (20 dollars) if she received some of the money Fidel distributed.
corruption? sure. but, the gap between the amount of the money that the rich has in the US and the upper middle class in the US is a lot greater in proportion than the gap between the upper and lower class anywhere else in the world. Mind control. Really expensive mind control.
Socialism is just for people who don't have money as a priority. It doesn't make it work. Democracy can work better because of all the money that the government allows its real leaders (businessmen) to make.
I agree, in Socialists Governments there are no business men because all of the investors escaped when there was not a table system:
- Less investors = Less companies
- Less companies = Less work
- Less work = More poor people
- More poor people = System doesn't work
But it's ok while the leaders live in the huge houses they took for free from the people who worked all their lives.
That is why there needs to be compromise. To protect small business, there has to be democracy so that there would be income. Socialism would help to control monopolies and make sure that the wealth is distributed justly. Mix them. It wouldn't hurt.
There is enough money to make a middle class that will not complain as much and as long as everyone has all the luxuries that they want, everything will be ok.
At least there0's a middle class...in Socialist and Communist countries there are no classes, nobody owns anything, all is property of the state (Supposedly the workers) but the leaders control all the resources.
There is a middle class because there can be a middle class because there is enough money to maintain a middle class. It's very devious though, since the value of the minimum wage is lowering at a very rapid rate and the gap between the rich and everybody else is so large. The US got really rich after WWII. Before then, workers went on strike many many time demanding better pay and better working conditions. Socialism and even Communism were spreading at a very fast rate in the US because the rich people were exploiting the workers. The war came and businessmen saw this as a money making opportunity where they could create jobs and bring the US out of the depression that had been going on through the thirties. Ever since then, the US has been in one war after another in order to protect interest and keep the middle class happy. That is not justice. Wars are almost completely diliberate now.
Human have lived without TV, AC, video games, cell phones, computers, and MP3 players for so long and the companies are making it so that these become neccessities. THat is where the corruption is in democracy: mind control, just like socialism, except a lot more comfortable.
Now you're an Amish?
How many Prog CD's do you have? In what do you play them? How do you have Internet access? So in this case..Are you part of this corruption?
Me not buying any of those things is not going to make a difference. I can't make a difference living in this country anyways. Almost everything that I buy was made somewhere else. Besides, prog is art. It's pretty irrelevant to what we are talking about right now.
Humanity has to progress and if ths allows us to be more comfortable, why reject it? But at least you admit Socialism is mind control but without comfort.
Reject it because of the people that have to be brought down so that you could be comfortable. THink of the people.
The world is not fair and believe me I'm not rich, I don't have a stable work, if I don't work a week I don't eat because Peruvian lawyers are rarely rivch, but I know that if I work and have a bit of luck I will have enough money to marry and allow my children to live well and study.
God Bless You then, but we can't just sit and accept the price of what we have. We have to think about the children of the exploited also and the kids that are being exploited themselves.
I have thought about it for a while now, and since global warming is very real, I guess I'll just move to Canada.
Yes, to the Revolutianary Canada. Very convenient.
Hey, they need more people. There two biggest problems there are unemployment and underpopulation. I just thing that Canada is a good launching point for me to do what I want to do.
Iván
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Arrrghus
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Posted: November 30 2006 at 20:31 |
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You know what, I'm not just proud be an American, I'm happy being a free-thinking, prog-liking, middle-class, Western human being.
I think we should be grateful, all of us that are actually able to post on this forum.
jalas, you realize you probably live a great life, and you owe it to your country.
It's funny, a lot of teenagers tend to hate their own country because their minds are easily molded into believing something. jalas, you site several books as influences. Why don't you think for yourself? Let you form your own opinions, not an author who dislikes America/capitalism/democracy.
You know, instead of moving to Canada to escape this "horror," do something about it! Get a degree in Political Sciences and run for office. Try and make a difference - that's what America is all about.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
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Points: 28057
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Posted: November 30 2006 at 20:33 |
I love this Zappa quote:
"Mr. Gorbachev has appparently stumbled onto one of the most best-kept secrets in recent Soviet history: Communism doesn't work. It's against a basic law of nature: PEOPLE WANT TO OWN STUFF."
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Arrrghus
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Posted: November 30 2006 at 20:34 |
stonebeard wrote:
I love this Zappa quote:
"Mr. Gorbachev has appparently stumbled onto one of the most best-kept secrets in recent Soviet history: Communism doesn't work. It's against a basic law of nature: PEOPLE WANT TO OWN STUFF."
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That's one of my favorite Zappa quotes!  
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
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Points: 28057
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Posted: November 30 2006 at 20:36 |
Arrrghus wrote:
You know what, I'm not just proud be an American, I'm happy being a free-thinking, prog-liking, middle-class, Western human being.
I think we should be grateful, all of us that are actually able to post on this forum.
jalas, you realize you probably live a great life, and you owe it to your country. |
The problem one may perceive is likely not that one's life is bad in perticular, but of the ambivalence of others toward people of lesser good fortune. Communism won't solve this, IMO, and if it were to be imposed on a counrty weaned on democracy (like the USA), I imagine it would create resentment, uprising, and chaos.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: November 30 2006 at 20:37 |
Atkingani wrote:
In the case of Argentina, the number is much greater, probably ten times the informed. I think also the numbers for Pinochet are minimized by 3 or 4, maybe 5.
The numbers for Johnson and Nixon for Vietnam are greater too (certainly more than 500,000, due to the bombings, orange agent, etc).
I don't know Iván, you know I share many thoughts with you but this list is biased IMO. |
I know Pinochet is long bigger (I believe around 10,000) whidh ids the numbetr of the missing and Videla most surely, but it's biased to both sides, for example,Stalin massacred the Jewish Community and it's not mentioned but , still China alone (With data provided by their own Government) is higher than all the rest together.
Also remember that Pol Pot in the Democratic Kampuchea killed almost 50% of Cambodia's populatuion, that's almost the extermination of an ethnia, maybe and despite the numbers, more significatives in terms of Genocide than the ones commited in China.
BTW: Just for information, Pinochet is not a genocide.
Sounds shocking, but it's true, genocide is the extermination of a determined ethnia or religious group,. he was a brutal mass murderer because he hadn't any preference for a determined ethnic group, he killed everybody that disagreed with him despite race or creed.
Main Entry: genoˇcide  Pronunciation: 'je-n&-"sIdFunction: noun: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
Pinochet at the end killed communists, gays, democrats, Catholics, Protestants, Atheists, Jewishs, ndigenous and white with no difference.
His main target was Communism but he went for everybody.
Iván
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jalas
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 07 2006
Location: United States
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Points: 283
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Posted: November 30 2006 at 20:38 |
stonebeard wrote:
I love this Zappa quote:
"Mr. Gorbachev has appparently stumbled onto one of the most best-kept secrets in recent Soviet history: Communism doesn't work. It's against a basic law of nature: PEOPLE WANT TO OWN STUFF."
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I love sarcasm. Zappa was very right.
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Arrrghus
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Posted: November 30 2006 at 20:39 |
stonebeard wrote:
Arrrghus wrote:
You know what, I'm not just proud be an American, I'm happy being a free-thinking, prog-liking, middle-class, Western human being. I think we should be grateful, all of us that are actually able to post on this forum. jalas, you realize you probably live a great life, and you owe it to your country. |
The problem one may perceive is likely not that one's life is bad in perticular, but of the ambivalence of others toward people of lesser good fortune. Communism won't solve this, IMO, and if it were to be imposed on a counrty weaned on democracy (like the USA), I imagine it would create resentment, uprising, and chaos. |
I know...
However, democracy and capitalism are our best choices. Hey, in a capitalist country, some people are poor, some people are rich, and most are in between. In a communist country, there is no in between, very little rich (if any), and everyone is poor.
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KoS
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Posted: November 30 2006 at 20:44 |
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One thing that was missing from the genocide chart was the killing of Native Americans
which was supported by the US gov.
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stonebeard
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Posted: November 30 2006 at 20:44 |
Arrrghus wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
Arrrghus wrote:
You know what, I'm not just proud be an American, I'm happy being a free-thinking, prog-liking, middle-class, Western human being. I think we should be grateful, all of us that are actually able to post on this forum. jalas, you realize you probably live a great life, and you owe it to your country. |
The problem one may perceive is likely not that one's life is bad in perticular, but of the ambivalence of others toward people of lesser good fortune. Communism won't solve this, IMO, and if it were to be imposed on a counrty weaned on democracy (like the USA), I imagine it would create resentment, uprising, and chaos. |
I know...
However, democracy and capitalism are our best choices. Hey, in a capitalist country, some people are poor, some people are rich, and most are in between. In a communist country, there is no in between, very little rich (if any), and everyone is poor.
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History has shown this, but in an ideal world, everyone would be rich or middle class. The problem is-- and surely this has been brought up before--that when payouts are given to the entire population equally, the amount of shirking increases dramatically, because if one is still receiving a government handout not based on how much of and what they sell, they are more likely not to work as hard. Socialism would be a good thing, I believe, but only in an ideal world. But since human nature is the most unchangeable of instincts and since the world is definitely not ideal, communism is a breeding ground for a huge population being screwed over by a few influential assholes.
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stonebeard
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Posted: November 30 2006 at 20:46 |
king of Siam wrote:
One thing that was missing from the genocide chart was the killing of Native Americans
which was supported by the US gov.
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Not a high point in our history, eh?  Despite our previous f**king over of these people, we are reluctant to offer them too much in reparations, only doing so when forced by a benevolent court.
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jalas
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Posted: November 30 2006 at 20:46 |
Arrrghus wrote:
You know what, I'm not just proud be an American, I'm happy being a free-thinking, prog-liking, middle-class, Western human being.
I think we should be grateful, all of us that are actually able to post on this forum.
jalas, you realize you probably live a great life, and you owe it to your country.
It's funny, a lot of teenagers tend to hate their own country because their minds are easily molded into believing something. jalas, you site several books as influences. Why don't you think for yourself? Let you form your own opinions, not an author who dislikes America/capitalism/democracy.
You know, instead of moving to Canada to escape this "horror," do something about it! Get a degree in Political Sciences and run for office. Try and make a difference - that's what America is all about. |
Well maybe I don't like the feeling that I get when I think of all the people that have to suffer in order for me to be "free". Maybe I don't want to close my eyes.
I read these books in order to create a balance. American media is what I am exposed to the most and there is always a possibility that we are not getting the whole story.
In this world of imperfection, we have to be able to understand each others grievances and understand justice and love. I am doing something about what's going on. I'm studying to become a teacher. I would like to spread the love to people who will actually listen to me.
Being critical of your country, believe it or not, is a healthy thing. It keeps the government in check and keeps it from become what it is now. People do not rule. business rules. business is that imortal dictator that has no soul and has the potential to destroy lives. Nationalism come from patriotism and allows dictators to rise.
Peace and Love,
Jose
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Atkingani
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Posted: November 30 2006 at 20:56 |
king of Siam wrote:
One thing that was missing from the genocide chart was the killing of Native Americans
which was supported by the US gov.
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The list refers only to the XXth Century... if we go back in the years or centuries we'll find some terrible genocides, including Popes, kings, even some people that are "national heroes" in their countries.
But the genocide of Native Americans (all Americas) was really shameful and it took at least 4 centuries of disgrace, from around 1500 until 1900 - the situation improved in the last 100 years (although diseases, land invasions, environmental pressures, etc, still pay their tolls).
Other people that suffered too much were the sub-Saharan Africans (in a certain sense they still suffer, be it in Africa or elsewhere), not to mention Australian aboriginals, maoris, etc.
It seems that the History of Mankind is a constant anihilation of humans by other humans. 
Edited by Atkingani - November 30 2006 at 20:58
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Guigo
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KoS
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 17 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Status: Offline
Points: 16310
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Posted: November 30 2006 at 20:59 |
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I know it doesn't officially count but the sentiment was still alive and some horrible acts against them were still being made in the early 1900's.
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Scapler
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 18 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 2567
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Posted: November 30 2006 at 21:04 |
king of Siam wrote:
One thing that was missing from the genocide chart was the killing of Native Americans
which was supported by the US gov.
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The difference is, the US realizes the horrible mistake they made, and are sorry and horrified by it. Most of the world is stuck in our past mistakes, genocide still exists, it happens often, yet the world goes on pretending every dictator has the greatest intentions at heart, and we should NEVER intervene.
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Bassists are deadly
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KoS
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 17 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Status: Offline
Points: 16310
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Posted: November 30 2006 at 21:07 |
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The US has never acknowledged that it was genocide.
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OpethGuitarist
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 25 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1655
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Posted: November 30 2006 at 21:13 |
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Without business, it is unlikely you would have any of the amenities you currently use.
It's a necessary evil, just like money is. Appreciate that concept.
Business makes the keyboard you are typing on, the internet connection you are using, the food you eat, the heat provided to your house, the bed you sleep on at night.
If you have no desire for business, go to live in an uninhabited forest and live on your own with nature, otherwise you owe every comfort you get to business.
No, it's not perfect and has fallacies, but everything has fallacy. If you can't handle the fact that every pleasure in your life besides the family unit comes from business, I pity you.
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back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums
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