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MikeEnRegalia 
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 Posted: May 02 2006 at 17:01 |
Stairway to Heaven - I wouldn't call that a common song structure. Maybe if you only look at the beginning - two alternating parts. But several others are introduced later - first the "makes me wonder" part which is totally different from the other two, and then of course the two special "verses" when the drums kick in. Then you have the solo which is truly great in the context of the other parts and even inspired Frank Zappa to cover it (Fantastic version by the way!).
Hardly prog? Maybe - but I'd rather rephrase that to "Not quite prog, but prog related".
And another thing: Why is everybody calling them a Blues band when at most two songs on each of their albums were Blues? I don't get it.
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Certif1ed
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 17:11 |
 MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Stairway to Heaven - I wouldn't call that a common song structure. Maybe if you only look at the beginning - two alternating parts. But several others are introduced later - first the "makes me wonder" part which is totally different from the other two, and then of course the two special "verses" when the drums kick in. Then you have the solo which is truly great in the context of the other parts and even inspired Frank Zappa to cover it (Fantastic version by the way!).
Hardly prog? Maybe - but I'd rather rephrase that to "Not quite prog, but prog related".
And another thing: Why is everybody calling them a Blues band when at most two songs on each of their albums were Blues? I don't get it. |
That's because they were a blues band - you are obviously mixing up blues with 12-bar if you think there's a max of 2 blues songs on each of their albums.
Consider the (great) solo, for example. How many times does it stray from the minor pentatonic scale?
Stairway has a really simple structure;
A-B-A-B-A-B-A-C-D-D-E
The normal song structure is;
A-B-A-B-C-A-B
However, I'd consider C ("Makes me wonder") and the two "D"s combined to be a simple bridge passage.
E is just a jam over material that is a simplified and transposed version of D (if it's not a direct rip-off from "All Along the Watchtower"). It's also a coda, which is not unusual in common songwriting.
So the structure is simple, if slightly unconventional - but not unusual for Led Zep, as illustrated by "Hangman" (for example), which is rooted in folk.
Elongated structures weren't uncommon in the late 1960s, especially among the progressive blues bands (the music was called Progressive Blues) - good examples include John Mayall's "Bare Wires", Spooky Tooth's "Spooky Two" and Savoy Brown's "Raw Sienna" - all fantastic albums, and probably more progressive than any LZ album of the early 1970s.
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 17:16 |
"Progressive Blues" ... kind of says it all for me. The more Blues strays away from the 12 bar scheme, the more progressive it gets. 
Anyway - for me Blues requires: shuffle rhythm/feel (noted either as 12/8 or 4/4 with shuffle feel) and the inevitable turnaround.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 17:30 |
BTW: Isn't stairway more like:
A B A C D C D C D C D E F (G)
(bold indicates "with drums")
A = Main part (that which people hum when asked to hum Stairway to Heaven)
B = Oh oh oh ... and she's buying ...
C = Oh - and it makes me wonder ...
D = There's a feeling I get ...
E = Solo
F = Solo 2
G = Outro (two chords really)
Edited by MikeEnRegalia - May 04 2006 at 17:30
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akin
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Joined: February 06 2004
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 17:55 |
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I don't see their album as prog, neither prog related. The fact of
being an elaborated hard rock doesn't mean it is progressive rock. If
it was so, half of the bands between 67 and 75 would be prog
related.
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Dr4Wazo
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 18:13 |
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following albums are even more prog-related
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Certif1ed
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Posted: May 05 2006 at 02:56 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
BTW: Isn't stairway more like:
A B A C D C D C D C D E F (G)
(bold indicates "with drums")
A = Main part (that which people hum when asked to hum Stairway to Heaven)
B = Oh oh oh ... and she's buying ...
C = Oh - and it makes me wonder ...
D = There's a feeling I get ...
E = Solo
F = Solo 2
G = Outro (two chords really)
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I must confess I did that analysis off the top of my head - but it seems plain to me that there is only one riff during the whole of the guitar solo, even if the presentation changes very slightly. I would hardly call the outro a new section, so no, I don't think there's an F or G section - and even the E section is tenuous, as I identified it as a simplification and transposition of D.
It's a burn-out/coda at the end of the day - not fresh sections of the song.
Since B and C are constructed almost entirely from A, I'm having second thoughts about the actual existence of a B section - especially as it's not a "proper" chorus, and if it wasn't for the obvious character change in what was previously the C section, brought about by the addition of percussion, I'd think that maybe there's no real bridge.
I think my original statement was pretty accurate; there are but 2 parts to Stairway.
I think it's obvious that it's not a progressive structure - it's incredibly simple - although the developing growth of the music through the piece over it is progressive.
As already noted, it's progressive blues. There's a whole world of progressive blues bands out there, many more progressive than Led Zeppelin - but maybe few as consistently great at writing catchy and accessible blues/folk rock songs.
If Progressive Blues bands should be added, then there are several hundered of them to check out before Led Zeppelin are added.
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: May 05 2006 at 03:11 |
"I think my original statement was pretty accurate; there are but 2 parts to Stairway."
That's just ridiculous and somewhat destroys your credibility as an musical expert for me. Can you explain to me what defines a "part" then? Even the chord progressions are different.
Well - I guess that either you are right or the dozens of songbooks ...
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the icon of sin
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 09:07 |
Snow Dog wrote:
OT Räihälä wrote:
Quite simply: no. Zeppelin IV is not prog related. It's blues related rock, whereas i.e. LZ I is rock related blues. |
So what about the Folk? |
Yeah, there's hardly any blues in LZ IV...Maybe bits of "When the Levee Breaks" but no more.
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Philéas
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 10:03 |
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Yes. Because:
Stairway to Heaven and The Battle of Evermore are prog songs
Going to California and When the Levee Breaks have hints of prog in
them, and the riff in Black Dog very sophisticated, compared to other
songs at the time.
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Fassbinder
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 19:47 |
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...at least...
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The Wizard
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Joined: July 18 2005
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 19:52 |
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Battle of Evermore and Stairway to Heaven are pure prog, and the rest of it pure classic rock music.
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Fede
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Joined: February 15 2006
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 20:27 |
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I would say that it is a prog related album....
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Uther
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Posted: September 29 2006 at 10:13 |
Absolutly right
I think this album presents various elements that you can think like a how a hard rock band go toward prog...with a folk component ( they first essay was N III) , but they reach a peak with this mixture in Physsical 
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What! can the devil speak true?
Macbeth, 1. 3
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Mandrakeroot
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Posted: September 29 2006 at 10:14 |
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LED ZEPPELIN is a Prog Related band!!!
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Abstrakt
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Posted: September 29 2006 at 10:16 |
Nope, LZIV is a classic rock album.
Just because it's influenced by other genres and a bit progressive doesn't mean it's prog!
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Bilek
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Posted: September 29 2006 at 10:50 |
Prog (related) or not... It's certainly a masterpiece!!!!!!!!
and I believe it's a must have for many progheads, especially Symphonic Prog, Heavy Prog (I did not make this genre up, it's there!!!) and Prog Metal heads...
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Listen to Turkish psych/prog; you won't regret:
Baris Manco,Erkin Koray,Cem Karaca,Mogollar,3 Hürel,Selda,Edip Akbayram,Fikret Kizilok,Ersen (and Dadaslar) (but stick with the '70's, and 'early 80's!)
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gong
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Posted: November 10 2006 at 01:27 |
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yes, Led Zeppelin IV is prog related album, IMO.
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Peter
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Posted: November 10 2006 at 13:29 |
All older rock (especially the stuff WE like) is "prog related."
It's the genre that does not exist. Way too broad -- I think it stinks. It's the genre that lets us list all of the "better" old rock bands here. But WHY? 
To me, if we must have such a vague, catch-all category, the "relationships" to prog should be found along lines of personel (he played with Fripp, etc.), not "prog fans would probably like this too" or "we don't really know what prog is, but if you squinch your eyes up, this kind of looks like it, whatever it is." 
I love LZ IV, though! I really don't care if it's "related" to Fripp's left nut -- I can "relate" to it!
Boxes, boxes -- we need more boxes....
 Nail it in place -- don't let it get away! Slay the slippery art beast with words! Measure it! Weigh it! Pontificate upon it! Quantify and categorize it for all time!
Edited by Peter Rideout - November 10 2006 at 13:30
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Drew
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Joined: June 20 2005
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Posted: November 10 2006 at 13:29 |
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no
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Is Led Zeppelin IV a prog related album?
