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Topic ClosedIs the Middle East going to war?

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NetsNJFan View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2006 at 17:13
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Once again, the mainstream media chooses to play down/ignore the presence of Israeli fighter jets flying over the summer retreat of the Syrian leader. The jets were apparently fired upon and retreated.\ This does have the real potential to escalate..

Provocative..
    
 
Blacksword, this is hardly new news.  This was days ago.  I seriously doubt the Syrians chased the Israelis away.  They are just saying that to save face.  During the six day war Syrian state radio said that they shot down over 80 Israeli Jets and were advancing on Haifa. 
 
The Syrians are smart, they won't fire on the planes because they no they can't win this fight, if it comes.  That of course wont stop them and Iran from funding Hizbullah and Hamas.
 
American news channels talked about this quite a bit.
 
It was interesting, I watched BBC News last night, very different from CNN/Fox News.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2006 at 17:06
Once again, the mainstream media chooses to play down/ignore the presence of Israeli fighter jets flying over the summer retreat of the Syrian leader. The jets were apparently fired upon and retreated.\ This does have the real potential to escalate..

Provocative..
    

Edited by Blacksword - July 02 2006 at 17:07
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2006 at 16:57
Hamas threatens to attack Israeli schools if IDF incursion into Gaza continues
By Avi Issacharoff (in Ramallah) and Amos Harel, Haaretz Correspondents, Haaretz Service and Agencies

Hamas' armed wing threatened on Sunday to attack Israeli schools, institutions and power plants if Israel, pursuing a military campaign to free a kidnapped soldier held in Gaza, continued its air strikes against infrastructure in Gaza.

"If they continue with these attacks we will strike similar targets in the Zionist Occupation which we have not targeted until now," Abu Ubaida, a spokesman for Hamas' Iz al-Din al-Qassam, said.

Israel has launched air strikes against Gaza's main power plant and road bridges as part of an offensive launched last week to free Corporal Gilad Shalit, who was kidnapped by militants including members of Hamas in a cross-border raid.

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"If the Occupation continues aggression and terrorism against our people ... it will drag the region into a sea of blood and the consequences will be terrible. We still have many options," Abu Ubaida said.

Abbas slams IAF strike on Haniyeh's office
Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas on Sunday criticized a "criminal" Israel Air Force missile strike on the Gaza offices of Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh.

Abbas and Haniyeh met Sunday morning, and after the meeting surveyed Haniyeh's damaged office together, waving through a hole in the wall.

"The world must understand that this is a dirty, criminal act," Abbas said.

An IAF attack helicopter launched a missile before dawn Sunday striking Haniyeh's office in Gaza City. Neither Haniyeh nor any of his aides were in the vicinity at the time of the bombing, but the building itself was damaged.

Haniyeh arrived quickly to survey the damage done to his Gaza office and to condemn the attack.

"This is a policy of the jungle and of arrogance," Haniyeh told Reuters, adding that the strike "targeted a symbol of the Palestinian people."

"Nothing will affect our spirit and nothing will affect our steadfastness," said Haniyeh.

Israel Radio reported that the structure went up in flames, and firefighters rushed to the scene shortly after the attack to extinguish the fire.

Annan: IAF strike on Haniyeh's office 'inadvisable'
UN Secretary General Kofi Annan on Sunday called the strike on Haniyeh's officer "inadvisable", saying Palestinian institutions must be preserved as the basis of a Middle East peace.

"I remain very concerned about the need to preserve Palestinian institutions and infrastructure. They will be the basis for an eventual two-state solution, and now that's in the interests of both Israel and the Palestinians," Annan told a news conference at an African Union summit in Gambia.

"It would therefore seem inadvisable to carry out actions that would have the opposite effect," he added.

The attack was similar to Israel's strike against the offices of the Palestinian public security minister - who, like Haniyeh, is a member of Hamas - two days earlier.

The assault on Haniyeh's office indicates a desire by Israel to heighten pressure on Hamas in order to yield the release of abducted Israel Defense Forces soldier Gilad Shalit.

Vice Premier Shimon Peres said the attack on the office of Haniyeh came "in the middle of the night" on Sunday, when Israeli officials knew Haniyeh would not be present.

"It was a clear warning that he has to stop this double behavior," Peres told CNN's Late Edition. "Either it's a government with all the responsibilities of a government, or it's a terrorist organization, with all the consequences that stem from it."

More air strikes
In a separate pre-dawn strike, the IAF hit the headquarters of a Hamas-run security organization in Gaza, killing one of the group's operatives and injuring another, Israel Radio reported.

The IAF also targeted and killed one Hamas operative in the northern Gaza town of Jabalya, according to Israel Radio.

Several sites were targeted across Gaza over the weekend. There were no casualties in any of the incidents, Palestinian medical workers said.

The attacks were on what the IDF called a "terrorist training facility" in the south of the Strip, and on a building in Gaza City which Palestinians said was used by Hamas militants.

The military confirmed attacking a Hamas facility in Gaza, and in a former Israeli settlement near the town of Rafah near the Egyptian border which was abandoned in last year's Israeli withdrawal and then taken over by Palestinian militants.

Palestinians said the new occupants, activists of the Abu Rish Brigades, loosely affiliated with Fatah, recently evacuated the complex, fearing such a strike.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2006 at 16:21
Hamas gunmen are already fighting back.  Its definately war at this point, just as I think 2002 Operation Defensive Shield was war.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2006 at 15:59
^ I think so yes, but it's a question of what words you choose to describe the situation. I'm sure if you asked PM Olmert if he was at war he would say 'No' for reasons of PR.

If it gets to a point, and it will, when Hamas starts fighting back, the term 'war' will be unavoidable.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2006 at 14:41
^  Blacksword, is it not all out war already?  I consider gunfire back and forth war.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2006 at 14:15
Hamas threatens further rocket attacks, and Gaza prepares for all out war with Israel..

On the brink?
    

Edited by Blacksword - July 02 2006 at 14:16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2006 at 11:28
Originally posted by spacecraft spacecraft wrote:

Much is made of the Israeli insurgence into the Gaza strip, bombs dropping here, innocent people killed there. But, hardly anyone blinks an eye when the obnoxious, ignorant and arogant race ( not England, but the Arabs, and Palestinions in particular) kill Jews.


I beg your pardon? Confused
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2006 at 11:20
Originally posted by Chicapah Chicapah wrote:

Originally posted by Forgotten Son Forgotten Son wrote:

Originally posted by Chicapah Chicapah wrote:

This may be only partially relevant but I just read that a suicide bomber in Iraq drove a car loaded with a bomb into a funeral gathering, killing 17.  Wouldn't all people consider that the apex of cowardice?  Is there no shred of decency left?  A funeral is a terrorists target now?


As awful as such acts are, the word "cowardice" hardly applies.
 
According to Wikipedia "Someone who attacks and/or kills a defenseless person is also considered a coward."  Blowing up people who are in public mourning over a loved one would apply.  I stand by my original assessment.


Wikipedia is hardly the most credible source in this matter. Anyone who is prepared to take their own life is hardly a coward, regardless of the manner in which they do it.

cow·ard·ice   Audio pronunciation of "Cowardice" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (kour-ds)
n.
Ignoble fear in the face of danger or pain.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2006 at 06:08
With such extreme fundings and firepower, a force as well armed as Israel doesn't have an excuse for such mistakes. And do you know where the terrorism originally stems from? There's a reason why the people are this desperate, it's not pointless, ruthless killings. They aren't willing to turn to the lowest possible medium for attack without a cause. I'm not justifying the acts, but I think one should look at what went wrong in causing people to need to use such a concept of violence.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2006 at 23:43
Originally posted by Root_Pepper Root_Pepper wrote:

It's not the casulties that count, it's the sheer firepower they've brought in. It's the destruction of power plants removing safe water supplies or reliant electricity throughout Gaza. It's the shock and awe tactics that have Palestinians hiding in their homes. It's these actions that breed terrorism.
 
I disagree.  I think the power plant attack was a mistake in retrospect, but terrorism is endemic to Palestinian culture.  Israel faced constant terrorism from Palestinian factions (egged on by Egypt and Syria) way before it occupied the territories.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2006 at 23:30
It's not the casulties that count, it's the sheer firepower they've brought in. It's the destruction of power plants removing safe water supplies or reliant electricity throughout Gaza. It's the shock and awe tactics that have Palestinians hiding in their homes. It's these actions that breed terrorism.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2006 at 22:19
Originally posted by Root_Pepper Root_Pepper wrote:

I'll try and not be critical, but I cannot BELIEVE the overwhelming and unnecessary force used by Israel in this current conflict. They are being the bullies in this situation, despite the medias attempt to victimize them - while simultaneously demonizing Hamas. I understand that Hamas is not the most angelic of organizations, but there is no right of Israel in arresting the Paelstinian government members. If Hamas entered Israel and arrested their leaders, there would be worldwide outrage. I know it's dangerous to say negative things about Israel, especially without recieving criticism, but they are really adding fuel to this fire right now. A new type of world war is on the breach, especially with these multiple Middle Eastern struggles adding up (Iraq, Iran, Israel, Afghanistan...)
 
What overwhelming force?  The number of casualties can be counted on one hand...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2006 at 20:54
I'll try and not be critical, but I cannot BELIEVE the overwhelming and unnecessary force used by Israel in this current conflict. They are being the bullies in this situation, despite the medias attempt to victimize them - while simultaneously demonizing Hamas. I understand that Hamas is not the most angelic of organizations, but there is no right of Israel in arresting the Paelstinian government members. If Hamas entered Israel and arrested their leaders, there would be worldwide outrage. I know it's dangerous to say negative things about Israel, especially without recieving criticism, but they are really adding fuel to this fire right now. A new type of world war is on the breach, especially with these multiple Middle Eastern struggles adding up (Iraq, Iran, Israel, Afghanistan...)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2006 at 20:41
For too long, the Palestinians have been run by terrorists, who do not want peace at any cost. Hamas are always going to be a problem and i hope Israel will deal with them in their usual cold blooded efficiency. The US and the Eu will stand by, but spout their usual mutterings, whilst allowing the Israelis to protect their own, as it should be.
 
Much is made of the Israeli insurgence into the Gaza strip, bombs dropping here, innocent people killed there. But, hardly anyone blinks an eye when the obnoxious, ignorant and arogant race ( not England, but the Arabs, and Palestinions in particular) kill Jews.
 
The only way there will be peace in the middle east is when the Palestinions realise that Israel is here to stay, and will, quite rightly, defend itself in any way it wants.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 16:49
Update:
 
Typical UN is at it again; not a peep over 400,000 dead in Darfur.  But the Gaza incursion, where I think 6 people have died, denotes a special session of the Security Council.  Give me a freaking break. 
 
The UN always does this, it always has its two perennial issues.  1) Israel 2) whatever else there is time for before lunch.


Edited by NetsNJFan - June 30 2006 at 16:52
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 16:13
Originally posted by crimson thing crimson thing wrote:

Whether or not you agree with their assessment, you won't stop the Palestinians attacking Israel as long as they believe they're trying to regain their own land. What do they have to lose? And it's not as if there are any counter offers on the table.......after all, how would you feel if someone invaded & occupied the whole of the US.......but expected you to feel grateful that you were offered back Montana & RI as full & final settlement.........
 
I know, Crimson I do understand their viewpoint.  They have been victims of History, pawns between the Arabs and the Israelis.  Nonetheless, they do have something to lose, the Gaza Strip, which they've now lost.  My problem is that this conflict isn't about the territories, it's about Israel proper.  The Palestinians already have close to 78% of Mandatory Palestine, with the Jews having 17%.  This conflict isn't about the 5% that are the territories, it is about the 17% occupied by the Jews.  The PLO was founded in 1964, before the territories were occupied. 
 
There has been offer after offer after offer, all turned down.  Olmert is offering a full withdrawal from 90% of the WB, with negotiations to determine the remainign 10%.  What is the problem with this offer?  Is it that they don't want the Israelis to leave?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 14:43
Whether or not you agree with their assessment, you won't stop the Palestinians attacking Israel as long as they believe they're trying to regain their own land. What do they have to lose? And it's not as if there are any counter offers on the table.......after all, how would you feel if someone invaded & occupied the whole of the US.......but expected you to feel grateful that you were offered back Montana & RI as full & final settlement.........
"Every man over forty is a scoundrel." GBS
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 14:22

Blacksword:

I agree, the recent events are most unfortuanate for both sides.  I do feel, however that it could have been avoided.  Had the Int'l community pressured Hamas to stop the rocket fire from Gaza, there would have been no invasion.  The again, it isn't like the Hamas government ever listens to the world, they wouldn't now.
 
I've been trying to think of another way Israel could have stopped the Qassam attacks, and I'm stumped.  Any ideas Blacksword?
 
(I know this is being framed in context of the kidnapping, but it is really about the Qassam rocket fire on Sderot, for which the PM, MoD were getting roasted by the public).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 13:28
Nets:  Thanks for posting that article, it was a fascinating read.
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