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Fitzcarraldo View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2006 at 11:22
Well, after watching all the videos plus reading many, but just a few, of the large number of 'conspiracy theory' and 'debunking conspiracy theory' Web sites, I am saturated, as Tony R said.
 


Edited by Fitzcarraldo - May 23 2006 at 11:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2006 at 11:31
"9/11 And The American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out" ... I wouldn't read a book that has such a biased and manipulative title.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2006 at 11:32
Originally posted by Fitzcarraldo Fitzcarraldo wrote:

Well, after watched all the videos plus reading many, but just a few, of the large number of 'conspiracy theory' and 'debunking conspiracy theory' Web sites, I am saturated, as Tony R said.
 


Stay tuned for some very interesting, mind-blowing "debunking the debunking of the conspiracy theories" websites.ConfusedWink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2006 at 11:35
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Incidentally: I always considered it odd that the impact of the plane would only cause such a small hole in the building. But now that I know more facts (the angle and exact position of the impact) there's no doubt for me that it was a plane. And think about it: If it really was a conspiracy, why would those behind it use a cruise missile and then make everyone believe that it was a plane? No, if it was a conspiracy then they captured the plane and crashed it into the Pentagon.
 
 
If you have time, take a look at Wilson's Solidworks 3D model animations, they are quite instructive (see the URL I gave in an earlier post). He has modelled the Pentagon building and position of the light poles (lamp posts) in the trajectory of the 757. The 757 is to scale too. His modelling also shows how the right engine knocked the generator out of the way, and how the left engine knocked a hole in the low wall in front of the building. It also shows how the 757 missed some of the cable reels. There are 3 animations on his site, if I recall. One of them is slow because it is an executable of the complete model environment, which you can rotate and zoom, which you will need to do because the aircraft is miniscule because you are looking at the entire Pentagon from a distance. His to-scale perspective rendering is also useful - it helped me to realise that the 757 *would* look like a small 'cigar tube' from that distance and angle. It also helped me to realise that what I thought was the aircraft was in fact the smoke, trailing behind, from a possibly damaged engine. The aircraft itself is almost completely obscured by the barrier's pedestal.
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2006 at 11:36
Fitzcarraldo said:

"If an aircraft was moving at 500 mph (the ASCE report says more than 500 mph, see http://911review.com/errors/pentagon/crashdebris.html) then in half a second (one frame) it would have moved 367 feet (112 metres). If the aircraft was moving at 400 mph as stated in the BBC video report then in one frame it would have moved 293 feet (89 metres).  A Boeing 757-200 is 155'3" (47.32m) long. Thus in one frame the 757 could have moved between nearly 2 to 2.5 body lengths. This could explain why the aircraft is only seen in one frame."

This puts doubts into my mind about what witnesses actually saw.  If an aircraft was flying at this speed and also at such a low altitude, surely the witnesses would have found it difficult to determine colour schemes and aircraft type?  Maybe the aircraft type would have been discernable, but the fact that it belonged to American Airlines and that they could see passengers and/or blinds within the windows?

It appears the aircraft was throttled up nearer impact, so it may well have been going slower when it was flying across the freeway, but how much slower?  Enough to determine colour schemes?

Just a thought I've had, that's all.


Edited by Geck0 - May 23 2006 at 13:08
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2006 at 11:45
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:


Stay tuned for some very interesting, mind-blowing "debunking the debunking of the conspiracy theories" websites.ConfusedWink
 
There are already umpteen Web sites by the so-called 'conspiracy theorists' that attempt to debunk the debunking of the conspiracy theories. I have read several of them.
 
In fact, I found one that mimics that 146-page document by Roberts: it even uses some of the same words as Roberts, and at first I thought he had changed his spots!
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2006 at 11:50
I thought this website was more sincere than most, it's still a conspiracy theory idea though.  I'm just adding sites to the thread.

http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr7.html


and a follow-on, two years later:

http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr68.html



Edited by Geck0 - May 23 2006 at 11:55
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2006 at 12:07
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

"9/11 And The American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out" ... I wouldn't read a book that has such a biased and manipulative title.
 
Don't be too hasty, Mike. Even if he turns out to be wrong about the science, David Ray Griffin's message about the US neo-conservatives and so-called Bush Doctrine and US imperialism deserves to be heard and debated.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2006 at 12:10
Sure, everybody deserves to be heard ... but I wouldn't buy such a book in order to find out the truth about something.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2006 at 12:54
Originally posted by Geck0 Geck0 wrote:

Fitzcarraldo said:

"If an aircraft was moving at 500 mph (the ASCE report says more than 500 mph, see http://911review.com/errors/pentagon/crashdebris.html) then in half a second (one frame) it would have moved 367 feet (112 metres). If the aircraft was moving at 400 mph as stated in the BBC video report then in one frame it would have moved 293 feet (89 metres).  A Boeing 757-200 is 155'3" (47.32m) long. Thus in one frame the 757 could have moved between nearly 2 to 2.5 body lengths. This could explain why the aircraft is only seen in one frame.".

only this is a bunch of nonsense. we see an area of about 200 meters to the right of the Pentagon (judging from the size of the car that passes in front and applying the laws of Euclidean geometry), yet we see no plane passing. did it jump? the only explanation than can be found is that an object that moved a lot faster (at about Mach 2) hit the building. now that's the speed of some cruise missiles


Edited by BaldJean - May 23 2006 at 12:58


A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2006 at 13:06
And if it was Mach 2, then it's obviously breaking the sound barrier.  People would be deafened I think and cars would have been damaged on the freeway.

By the way, I'm not against your theory Jean.

Everyone should read the two newsletters I've posted, especially the latter one.  He's very sincere and even debunks his own theories that he made in his first newsletter.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2006 at 13:28

The AGM-86B is the ALCM (air-launched cruise missile) used by the USAF. It's speed is 550 mph.

The AGM-109 is the GLCM & SLCM (ground launched & ship launched...) used by the US army and navy. It's speed is 550 mph.
 
Your guesstimate of the time lapse camera frame speed was, if I recall 1/4 sec., i.e. 100% out. You are now making a guesstimate of distances which could be widely in error. See if you can find a plan view of the area, viz. the roads, barriers, aircraft trajectory and point of impact. You will I'm sure see that it is possible. If I get the time, I will do the same. There are plan views on the Web, by the way. Study also the 3D models I referred to earlier. you can manipulate one of them.
 
Think about it: the Pentagon is not stupid enough to release a time lapse CCTV recording that would easily prove that a supersonic speed was the obvious conclusion!
 
Furthermore, all the evidence - which has been discussed ad nauseam in this thread and in the various Web sites linked to in this thread - point strongly against your conclusion. To recap: witnesses, debris, impact damage to the building and surrounding area (how would a cruise missle knock down the 5 lamp posts - see their physical layout, for example).
 
You need to read all the Web sites and various reports to find out about all these.
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2006 at 13:32
Just out of curiosity, wouldn't it have been more economical for Bush to simply BLOW UP the WTC and Pentagon, and SAY that it was a terrorist-caused CD, rather than fly planes into it?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2006 at 13:33
Originally posted by Geck0 Geck0 wrote:

And if it was Mach 2, then it's obviously breaking the sound barrier.  People would be deafened I think and cars would have been damaged on the freeway.

By the way, I'm not against your theory Jean.

Everyone should read the two newsletters I've posted, especially the latter one.  He's very sincere and even debunks his own theories that he made in his first newsletter.


Maybe he'll even write a third newsletter which debunks the second one?Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2006 at 13:34
Originally posted by Geck0 Geck0 wrote:

It appears the aircraft was throttled up nearer impact, so it may well have been going slower when it was flying across the freeway, but how much slower?  Enough to determine colour schemes?

Just a thought I've had, that's all.
 
AA planes have a very distinctive shiny chrome color scheme. It is possible that someone could have figured it out.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2006 at 13:43
Have you read the said newsletters?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2006 at 13:53
Originally posted by Fitzcarraldo Fitzcarraldo wrote:

The AGM-86B is the ALCM (air-launched cruise missile) used by the USAF. It's speed is 550 mph.


The AGM-109 is the GLCM & SLCM (ground launched & ship launched...) used by the US army and navy. It's speed is 550 mph.

 

Your guesstimate of the time lapse camera frame speed was, if I recall 1/4 sec., i.e. 100% out. You are now making a guesstimate of distances which could be widely in error. See if you can find a plan view of the area, viz. the roads, barriers, aircraft trajectory and point of impact. You will I'm sure see that it is possible. If I get the time, I will do the same. There are plan views on the Web, by the way. Study also the 3D models I referred to earlier. you can manipulate one of them.

 

Think about it: the Pentagon is not stupid enough to release a time lapse CCTV recording that would easily prove that a supersonic speed was the obvious conclusion!

 

Furthermore, all the evidence - which has been discussed ad nauseam in this thread and in the various Web sites linked to in this thread - point strongly against your conclusion. To recap: witnesses, debris, impact damage to the building and surrounding area (how would a cruise missle knock down the 5 lamp posts - see their physical layout, for example).

 

You need to read all the Web sites and various reports to find out about all these.

 

 

 


The Russians and Chinese have 'Sunburn' missiles which fly horizontally, at 30 feet above the ground at Mach2. They are deadly and completely untraceable. I'd be surprised if the US military didn't have an equivelant system to counter that.

Not that I'm fully signed on this missile theory..
    
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2006 at 13:56
The articles I've just cited, especially the latter, are actually against a cruise missile and also against a 757.  He makes no actual conclusions, which is why I think it's an important article to read.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2006 at 14:31
^ It is a very interesting and convincing article. I've struggled with the idea of a 757 hitting the building, and there is too much that does not add up. I'm warming to the missile theory. The author, as you say doesn't reach a conclusion as such, but I'm convinced that a passenger jet was not involved.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2006 at 14:39
Thank you for your insight, Andy (it is Andy isn't it?).  Yes, I am not-convinced about the 757 either.  I'm still undecided about what happens.

What I quite like about this article, is he is even against other conspiracy theorists, which is quite refreshing.
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