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stonebeard View Drop Down
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2006 at 17:23
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

I don't believe the conspiracy theorists.
 
This is why: There is simply too much at risk for the government to do this. What's the possibility of a missile hitting the Pentagon, and no other civilian recording device capturing it!?

well there weren't any civilian devices caught the plane hitting The Pentagon either.No one's going to tell me that Military Intelligence dont foot the bill for all local CCTV set ups.
 
Not CCTV. A simple camcorder or cell phone. And if not the impact, then at least the flight towards the Pentagon. I'm not saying that someone did capture it, but the possiblity of someone capturing a missile on its way or hitting the Pentagon is too high.
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Tony R View Drop Down
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Points: 11979 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2006 at 17:25
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

I don't believe the conspiracy theorists.
 
This is why: There is simply too much at risk for the government to do this. What's the possibility of a missile hitting the Pentagon, and no other civilian recording device capturing it!?

well there weren't any civilian devices caught the plane hitting The Pentagon either.No one's going to tell me that Military Intelligence dont foot the bill for all local CCTV set ups.
 
Not CCTV. A simple camcorder or cell phone. And if not the impact, then at least the flight towards the Pentagon. I'm not saying that someone did capture it, but the possiblity of someone capturing a missile on its way or hitting the Pentagon is too high.

They didnt capture video of a plane either which would have been flying a very scary trajectory for quite a few minutes and doubtless that area (though I'm guessing) would normally be free of air traffic,certainly low flying jets!


Edited by Tony R - May 18 2006 at 17:25
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stonebeard View Drop Down
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2006 at 17:27
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

I don't believe the conspiracy theorists.
 
This is why: There is simply too much at risk for the government to do this. What's the possibility of a missile hitting the Pentagon, and no other civilian recording device capturing it!?

well there weren't any civilian devices caught the plane hitting The Pentagon either.No one's going to tell me that Military Intelligence dont foot the bill for all local CCTV set ups.
 
Not CCTV. A simple camcorder or cell phone. And if not the impact, then at least the flight towards the Pentagon. I'm not saying that someone did capture it, but the possiblity of someone capturing a missile on its way or hitting the Pentagon is too high.

They didnt capture video of a plane either which would have been flying a very scary trajectory for quite a few minutes and doubtless that area (though I'm guessing) would normally be free of air traffic,certainly low flying jets!
Argh! Wacko I'm talking only of the POSSIBILITY of something being recorded!
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Tony R View Drop Down
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Points: 11979 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2006 at 17:31
Yep,I know.

You are saying that surely if a missile had been heading towards The Pentagon someone would have noticed and caught it on their phone.

I'm saying that that supposition stands for the plane theory.

No civilian video exists of either.

Which means the "risk" assessment you made was faulty.
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stonebeard View Drop Down
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2006 at 17:35
Just because it didn't happen doesn't mean it couldn't logically have happened. This had to have been considered at the time of planning. Most U.S. domestic and foreign operations are covert. This was very overt, reguardless of who did it. This being so, extra precautions had to be taken.
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Tony R View Drop Down
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Points: 11979 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2006 at 17:37
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Just because it didn't happen doesn't mean it couldn't logically have happened. This had to have been considered at the time of planning. Most U.S. domestic and foreign operations are covert. This was very overt, reguardless of who did it. This being so, extra precautions had to be taken.



Originally posted by stonebeard:

I don't believe the conspiracy theorists.
 
This is why: There is simply too much at risk for the government to do this. What's the possibility of a missile hitting the Pentagon, and no other civilian recording device capturing it!?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Me:

I dont disbelieve the conspiracy theorists.

This is why: It is relatively simply and not too much at risk for the government to do this. What's the possibility of a plane hitting the Pentagon, and no other civilian recording device capturing it!?



Understand now?
Wink



Edited by Tony R - May 18 2006 at 17:39
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stonebeard View Drop Down
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2006 at 17:42
^ Maybe Patrick Stewart captured the film after Mel Gibson threatened to go public with it? Wink
 



Edited by Tony R - May 18 2006 at 17:53
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Points: 11979 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2006 at 17:57
Wink
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stonebeard View Drop Down
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2006 at 18:00
^ Oi !!! Abuse! Abuse, I say!!! Exclamation
 
 
 
 
 
Wink


Edited by stonebeard - May 18 2006 at 18:01
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Points: 1835 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2006 at 18:43
I have to say that the following academic paper analysing the collapse of the World Trade Center buildings makes interesting reading:
 
 
Also interesting is the 1 hour 50 minute video of Professor Jones' Feb. 2006 lecture, followed by a 10-minute Q&A session followed by 10 minutes of footage of the three buildings collapsing and the controlled demolition of various high-rise buildings. The footage of the collapse of WTC7 is particularly interesting.
 
The hyperlink to the lecture video is on the above-mentioned page, but I recommend reading the paper first.
 
 
EDIT:

Subsequently to the above post I read something else about Professor Jones' paper. According to http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/jones.htm, his paper was peer-reviewed by the journal Research In Political Economy, and not by a scientific or engineering journal. According to the Wikipedia page on Professor Jones, his paper will be included in the book "9/11 And The American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out", a volume edited by David Ray Griffin and Peter Dale Scott, and scheduled for publication in 2006 by Interlink Books (not Elsevier as I had written in a previous post). I had hoped that Prof. Jones' paper would be submitted to an engneering or scientific journal. This is the only way to gain credibility for his hypothesis of controlled demolition.

According also to http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/jones.htm, the Chairman of the Brigham Young University Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering, Dr. Miller, is on record stating in an e-mail, "I think without exception, the structural engineering professors in our department are not in agreement with the claims made by Jones in his paper, and they don't think there is accuracy and validity to these claims".

I do hope that Prof. Jones submits his paper for peer review in an engineering or science journal, rather than just publishing it in a book edited by an advocate of the controlled demolition theory.

 


Edited by Fitzcarraldo - May 24 2006 at 19:22
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maani View Drop Down
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Points: 2632 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2006 at 18:49
Fitz:
 
I actually have a copy of Prof. Jones' abstract.  It is important to let people know that this is the first paper relating to alternative theories of the WTC collapse that has been accepted for peer review by the scientific community.  If it passes peer review, it will undoubtedly find its way to one of the major "hard science" publications.
 
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Points: 89372 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2006 at 18:53
I read somewhere that the video that Mike posted is being shown to the British Government in June or July, but I bet it'll be scoffed at and completely debunked.

Especially by Blair and his cronies.
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Points: 2632 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2006 at 18:55
Stonebeard:
 
Tell me - how fast do you think you could whip out your cellphone camera or camcorder?  Fast enough to capture a plane or missile travleing at hundreds of miles per hour?  It would only be in your frame of reference for seconds.  Even if someone were standing on the corner with a camcorder filming "local color," it is doubtful that, even if they swung it around as soon as they heard a strange noise, they would have captured anything on tape.
 
I am also curious why you find it so hard to believe that the U.S. government would blatantly murder its own citizens.  This would not be the first time, nor would it be the last: it would only be the most "spectacular" example.  We do it "over there" all the time, in covert ops that end up killing civilians, including Americans, as well as whoever the target(s) is/are.  Never heard the term "collateral damage?"  If the "goal" is important enough, then "collateral damage" could (and has) easily include American citizens.
 
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Points: 1835 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2006 at 18:58
It's due to be included in a book to be published by Elsevier (a well-known publisher in the science and engineering fields, as I know myself). I may purchase the book. However, according to his Feb 2006 lecture, publication in an engineering or scientific journal is not currently on the cards. To be published in an engineering or science journal of repute he would have to write a new paper if his current paper is published in the aforementioned book.
 
EDIT: I have subsequently read on the Wikipedia page on Professor Jones that the publisher will be Interlink Books, and not Elsevier.


Edited by Fitzcarraldo - May 24 2006 at 19:25
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Points: 89372 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2006 at 19:03
Maani,

I know you have read a lot about all this, so I was curious, re: The Pentagon.

I've viewed the two CCTV cameras footage and was curious to know whether you knew about how fast evacuation was from The Pentagon?  I see no sign of anyone leaving the building, is it reasonable for me to believe I should see people?

I've read reports about a woman who was by her car when the aircraft flew over her head... where's the carpark she refers too?

I also notice one solitary vehicle leaving the scene and no emergency services... I would have thought The Pentagon would have had emergency services close-by.  How fast was the response time, any ideas?

I hope you can answer my questions!


Edited by Geck0 - May 18 2006 at 19:04
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Points: 1149 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2006 at 19:10



Has anybody watched one of those movies where they finally got the government/corporation badies by publishing evidence on the internet. Well, there seems to be enough evidence floating about on the internet concerning this to sink a boat load of badies. Apathy, ain't it grand. I thought only Australians were apathetic. Blindly following the government is not patriotism. Allowing your privacy and liberties to be taken away is not patriotism. But all this is happening. The draft bill is back on the agenda - has WWIII already begun?
    
    
    

Edited by cobb - May 18 2006 at 20:02
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Points: 1149 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2006 at 20:14



Originally posted by Geck0 Geck0 wrote:



How fast was the response time, any ideas?I hope you can answer my questions!


Most of what you want to know can be found here.

    http://www.911truth.org/

For those who want to know why there are doubts, try the top 15 reasons to doubt the official story - Link at top of page.
Too many question and no answers....

Ps- this discourse is probably now being monitored by the FBI, CIA, PNAC and untold others... so don't give them your address
    

Edited by cobb - May 18 2006 at 20:18
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Points: 89372 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2006 at 20:23
Cheers Cobb.

Edited by Geck0 - May 18 2006 at 20:26
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maani View Drop Down
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Points: 2632 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2006 at 21:04
GeckO:
 
Re evacuation, that depends.  Remember that the wing of the building which was hit by the plane was undergoing renovations, so there were very few people in that wing at the time to evacuate.  It may well be that evacuation was occurring out of other wings that the c/c camera does not show.  (Though one could ask where the tapes from those cameras are!).  So, no, one wouldn't necessarily see evacuation activities on this particular tape.
 
Haven't heard about the woman in the car.
 
You bring up a good point about emergency services, one which I don't think has actually been raised with any rigor: wouldn't the Pentagon have on-site emergency services?  As it was, the first fire department trucks did respond within 2-3 minutes, according to witnesses at the site.  (Though how credible those witnesses are is anyone's guess...).
 
Cobb:
 
Thank you for posting that site.  It is one of the main sites for the 9/11 truth movement.  The organization I work most closely with is the New York affiliate, whose site is at:
 
 
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Points: 89372 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2006 at 21:10
Indeed, the videos they've just released go on for a while after and apart from one vehicle, I didn't see much else.

Those CCTV cameras were set up in a carpark, surely people would have run to their vehicles?  Also, apparently there was a worker outside at the time and who is a witness.  Maybe the distance is too far... but I see nobody around.

Thanks for the information.

Here's those two quotes I mentioned:

"Instantly I knew what was happening, and I involuntarily ducked as the plane passed perhaps 50 to 75 feet above the roof of my car at great speed," Owens said. "The plane slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon. The impact was deafening. The fuselage hit the ground and blew up," Mary Ann Owens - Delaware Online (9/12/01)
"Gripping the steering wheel of my vibrating car, I involuntarily ducked as the wobbling plane thundered over my head. Once it passed, I raised slightly and grimaced as the left wing dipped and scraped the helicopter area just before the nose crashed into the southwest wall of the Pentagon," Mary Ann Owens - Local London (9/11/02)
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