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maani 
Special Collaborator 
Founding Moderator Joined: January 30 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2632 |
 Posted: May 17 2006 at 10:25 |
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Jody: I add my sincere sorrow for your loss. Although it may be no comfort, the 9/11 truth movement (of which I have been a member for over 2 years) includes many of the victims' families, who do not believe the "official story" re the WTC, Pentagon and Pennsylvania. These people are doubly angry because they not only lost family and friends, but believe that the government was complicit in those deaths. For example, I know of at least half a dozen families (and there are many, many more) who had family or friends die at the WTC, but nevertheless believe that they were brought down by controlled demolition.
That said, I have three inital comments on the Pentagon tape.
First, as many have pointed out, there is actually nothing on the tape that proves it was a 757: it remains ambiguous, and only creates more questions than it answers.
Second, the Pentagon is one of the most heavily protected buildings in the world. There must be dozens, perhaps hundreds, of cameras surrounding the building. Is the DOD suggesting that only one single camera caught the "crash?" This stretches credibility a bit far, don't you think?
Third, within minutes of the crash, the FBI confiscated closed-circuit videotapes from a gas station, a hotel, a supermarket and another venue, all of which had clear shots of the crash. If all of the tapes show the same thing, why only release the DOD tape and not the others? Food for thought.
As Sean suggests, no matter how the government "spins" the "official story," one single, indisputable fact speaks volumes: a 757 has a wingspan of 141 feet and a tail height of 44 feet. Yet the hole in the Pentagon was 60-75 feet wide, and the windows on the third floor - at a height of only 30 feet - were completely intact. End of story.
Still, it is important that anyone who has an interest in this subejct - "9/11 truth" - do their own research. By all means, read government-issued reports and statements, and sites that support the "official story." And go to the many sites that provide evidence of "alternative theories" of the events of 9/11. Then use your own innate sense of logic, common sense and discernment to come to your own conclusion.
Peace. Edited by maani - May 17 2006 at 10:26 |
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: July 04 2005 Location: Malaria Status: Offline Points: 89372 |
Posted: May 17 2006 at 10:26 |
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Bob, apparently it has just been released. You may have seen the stills from this video, that were made into an animated gif. The video is clearer, but still is inconclusive.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20414 |
Posted: May 17 2006 at 10:28 |
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Actually If I had been president I probably would've ordered it shot down >> force majeure, It just had to be done.
but I would certainly not have hidden that I had ordered shot down, >>> the fact of inventing this rebellion so they died as heroes as they said it happened >> that is utter trash and disgraceful
 Of course the lawyers of families would've been there claiming interest and more
But we will never really know, uh?
And please accept my full sympathy
Edited by Sean Trane - May 17 2006 at 10:31 |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21596 |
Posted: May 17 2006 at 10:38 |
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Sorry about your nephew, Jody!
But I agree that people should try to obtain all information available on the subject and then make up their minds and decide what THEY believe. Here's an interesting video - highly recommended! http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848 |
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005 Location: Malaria Status: Offline Points: 89372 |
Posted: May 17 2006 at 11:27 |
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Thanks for the link. That is very interesting indeed!
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marktheshark
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: April 24 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1695 |
Posted: May 17 2006 at 11:56 |
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Sorry about your nephew Jody. Was he IN the Pentagon when this happened?
Also as far as these conspiracy theories go, if it was not a plane then someone needs to let our Solicitor General Ted Olsen know where his wife Barbara is because she was last seen boarding that plane along with a friend of mine's brother and sister-in-law! |
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Jim Garten
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin & Razor Guru Joined: February 02 2004 Location: South England Status: Offline Points: 14693 |
Posted: May 17 2006 at 12:22 |
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I'm glad I'm not the only one getting deja vu; it's not only still images I've seen in the past, I'm sure it was a video 
Jody - my sincere condolences - I hope this ongoing discussion thread doesn't prove too upsetting. |
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005 Location: NE Indiana Status: Offline Points: 28057 |
Posted: May 17 2006 at 15:13 |
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I don't believe anything the government says anyway. I wouldn't even believe this tape was from a security camera if they told me so (and they did).
Face it:
For the past half century, people have come to distrust the government (at least in the USA) more and more, and the Bush administration pushed everyone's fears over the edge by lying so much and explioting 9/11. It's sad, really. I want to trust the people that have the ability to command armies (essentiall, my frends and I), but I don't.
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: July 16 2004 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 11979 |
Posted: May 17 2006 at 17:41 |
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I do believe an airplane hit The Pentagon. Having scrutinised pictures of the lawn outside,the size of the hole in the building and the condition of exterior and interior walls,despite the fact that the Govt claims to have only this small video evidence,I can only come to one conclusion: one would have to be extremely stupid not to believe the Govt's version of events.
>face-saving edit?  Edited by Tony R - May 19 2006 at 18:54 |
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aapatsos
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: November 11 2005 Location: Manchester, UK Status: Offline Points: 9226 |
Posted: May 17 2006 at 17:50 |
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I think that this is the right time to release another video like that... Sincere sorry to Jody...
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marktheshark
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 24 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1695 |
Posted: May 17 2006 at 17:53 |
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And one would have to be pretty paranoid to hang on to this theory. So I ask again, WHERE ARE THE PASSENGERS THEN?! |
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005 Location: Entropia Status: Offline Points: 16449 |
Posted: May 17 2006 at 19:08 |
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Were's the plain wreckage?
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maani
Special Collaborator
Founding Moderator Joined: January 30 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2632 |
Posted: May 17 2006 at 19:08 |
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Mark:
Where are the passengers? Are you sure you want to know the (possible) answer to that? After all, if Roosevelt permitted 2400 U.S. servicepersons to die on 12/7/41 in order to have a pretext for entering WWII, and Johnson (and Nixon) escalated the war on the false pretense of the Gulf of Tonkin incident, causing the unnecessary deaths of over 58,000 American servicemen (and over 3 million Vietnamese...), and if the alternative theory people are correct about 9/11 and the government allowed over 2500 Americans (and others) to die in a controlled demolition of the WTC, the answer to your question is devastatingly, horribly obvious: either they were deboarded from the plane during the time that the transponder was off, and "disappeared" then, or the plane was escorted out to sea and shot down over the Atlantic Ocean. There is some evidence to support the latter theory.
Peace.
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The Wizard
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 18 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7341 |
Posted: May 17 2006 at 19:19 |
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I share that opinion!
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marktheshark
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 24 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1695 |
Posted: May 17 2006 at 19:34 |
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Where was plane wreckage in the WTC buildings? They didn't come up with any major parts. The answer, according to an Air Force Capt. was they were disintegrated. These planes blew up as a cause of impact, not skidding down in a farmers field. There are no wings left because that's where the fuel is and I think the tail has an auxillary tank. When jet fuel is ignited in open air under pressure as opposed to inside an engine, it burns over 100 times hotter because it's exposed to more oxygen. The hottest point of the explosion is the white flash at the point of impact. Now, the shell of a 757 is not exactly an armored car. I forget the technical name of the alloy they use. But it's basically an eggshell. This isn't coming from me, I got this last year at a veteran's forum where they had this same discussion. And this Air Force chap basically just said that any kind of crash involving a jet impacting is not going to leave much. In fact I think I remember he mentioned that he was at the crash site of Dean Martin's son who crash his F-14 into a mountain and all they could find was some landing gear and parts of the engines and cockpit. Not even bones! I'm no expert on this, so just take for what it is. |
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marktheshark
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 24 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1695 |
Posted: May 17 2006 at 19:58 |
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Now as for you Jim Garrison, do have any idea what it would take to pull off something this elaborate? You would need at least half the government in on it. Nixon couldn't keep his wiretaps and buggings a secret. Don't you think some whistleblower would've surfaced by now? Or have they all disappeared too? |
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Sacred 22
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 24 2006 Status: Offline Points: 1509 |
Posted: May 17 2006 at 21:35 |
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It's only a conspiracy when there are no concrete facts to back it up. In the case of 911 there is enough evidence to throw the key away. Inside job all the way. Buildings don't just fall down in a controlled way for the fun of it. Terrorists?, it's laughable. It's all done to remove your rights and freedoms. They just needed an excuse, that's all.
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marktheshark
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 24 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1695 |
Posted: May 17 2006 at 21:45 |
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You forgot to mention about Elvis and the UFO's involved. 
Edited by marktheshark - May 17 2006 at 21:49 |
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maani
Special Collaborator
Founding Moderator Joined: January 30 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2632 |
Posted: May 17 2006 at 23:30 |
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Mark:
Re "whistleblowers," see my post in the other 9/11 thread.
Re the passengers on Flight 77, that one is actually quite easy, and would not require the knowledge of more than a handful of people at most, if we are considering the second theory I mentioned: the "shoot-down."
We know that Flight 77 was "off radar" for almost 40 minutes. We also know, from the 9/11 Report, that two fighter jets were scrambled from the air force base near Dulles. We also know, from the 9/11 report, that those planes actually spent about 20 minutes off the coast wating for further instructions.
My guess is that the two fighter jets "escorted" Flight 77 out over the Atlantic and blew it out of the sky. In all the craziness already surrounding the WTC, it would have been easy for this to occur without witnesses. Indeed, had there been any "debris" from the shoot-down, it could easily have been dealt with, since everyone's eyes were elsewhere. Once Flight 77 was "out of the picture," the drone plane or missile that actually hit the Pentagon would be sent in.
The only people who would have had to know about the shoot-down were the person who gave the order, and the two fighter jet pilots.
I accept that this is just a theory. But, as noted, there is evidence to support it.
Peace.
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marktheshark
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 24 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1695 |
Posted: May 17 2006 at 23:50 |
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It doesn't work that simple maani. Orders have to cleared and not just to the pilots either. You forget the people involved in shooting whatever you think it was into the Pentagon. The eyewitnesses that saw it would have to be planted. Ever been to the Pentagon? I worked there for 3 years. It's one of the busiest buildings in Washington. People constantly going in and out all over the place especially around 9-10am. The parking lots are always buzzing with people. In fact, I just remembered talking to client a few weeks ago who lives in Crystal City right next to the Pentagon and he saw the plane going down and heard the explosion. Sorry maani, this is just too close to home for me to even consider these "theories". I generally try to keep my opinions and viewpoints based on my own past experiences and not from a bunch of blogs or whatever. |
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9/11 Pentagon Video finally released...
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