Prog and Socialism

Catholic Flame wrote: Syzygy wrote: Catholic Flame wrote: Syzygy wrote: Catholic Flame wrote: BestFreak wrote: If we look at the political spectrum back in the 1950's and 1960's, we will find that most political parties which named themselves "progressive" were socialist/left-wing in nature. In a way, socialim provided the political spectrum with an alternative to the then-outdated nationalist/conservative movements, which ultimately resulted in two world wars. Bearing this in mind, I think we can say that "socialism" (as a new way of main-stream political thinking) paved the way for "progressive music" (as a new way of writing music). Also, quite remarkable is the fact that "capitalism" (as a means to maximize profits) lead to the emergence of consumerism in all aspects of life, including arts (and particularly the music industry). How else can we explain the myriad of bands who emerge everyday, to sell one rubbish album to today's teenagers? In that sense, "progressive music" does not have "profit maximization" as a target, and therefore is far from being "capitalist" in nature. It is safe, therefore, to claim that Progressive Rock does have some conceptual similarities with "Socialism". Am I making any sense at all? But, to paraphrase Ayn Rand, communism controls people by force and socialism controls them with the vote. Capitalism allows people free expression. Isn't that what "Prog" should be about? Choice! For good or for bad we get to choose.   Capitalism only offers the illusion of choice - when Pravda printed statements like that about communism in the Soviet Union nobody believed them. Why so many people swallow the enormous untruths about US consumer capitalism without a moment's pause for critical reflection is one of the great mysteries of our age. Ayn Rand's half baked merging of Adam Smith economics and a 3rd Reich style misreading of Nietszche is intellectually bankrupt and morally vacuous. If you're going to try to back up your arguments, try citing a source that has at least an iota of credibility. So Pravda is your credible source????????????????????????????????????? My point: Pravda, the state owned Soviet newspaper (the name means 'Truth' in Russian) used to print blatant propaganda about the Soviet system This was believed by almost nobody in the West, and apparently by a vanishingly small number of people in the Soviet Union as well Pravda was not a credible source. Moving on: Media owned by huge multinational corporations with a vested interest in scorched earth consumer capitalism print blatant propaganda about consumer capitalism This is believed by worryingly large numbers of people News International et al are not credible sources Now go and read Manufacturing Consent by Noam Chomsky, in which every argument is backed up with checkable and verifiable citations. His prose style is highly readable, which is more than can be said for Ayn Rand. But what prog group ever thanked Noam Chomsky? Rush thanked Ayn Rand. If this site was devoted to political discussion it might -- might -- be worth the time. But since we are talking about Prog music, again what prog group ever thanked Noam Chomsky? Has any other group sighted a political/economic figure? It would be interesting to know.

Robert Wyatt namechecks and quotes Noam Chomsky in the lyrics to Alliance off Old Rottenhat:

http://www.strongcomet.com/wyatt/lyrics/lyrics2.htm#Alliance

His political views were also made explicit on Matching Mole's Little Red Record, on the cover of which the band members are portrayed in the Socialist Realism style as left wing revolutionaries. Then there's his cover version of Stalin Wasn't Stallin' on Nothing Can Stop Us and his versions of songs by Victor Jara, a Chilean dissident murdered by the Pinochet regime.

Henry Cow were also explicitly political, and quoted the left wing film maker John Grierson on the cover of In Praise Of Learning - "Art is not A mirror; it is a hammer". This engagement continued with post Henry Cow projects like Art Bears and News From Babel.

The majority of RIO/Avant Prog bands are also left wing, some more explicitly than others.

Aside from that scene, Nick Mason refers to Pink Floyd's left wing sympathies several times in Inside Out, although the irony of such a successful group performing 'Money" isn't touched upon at all.

And you may find this snippet interesting as well:

"Pop music pioneer Brian Eno and anthropologist Noam Chomsky" will be collaborating on Punctum. The plan for the piece, "to be broadcast in 30 three-minute slots on Radio Lincolnshire", is "to compose a musical score by imagining the rhythm or emotional emphasis given to punctuation marks in specific pieces of great literature" -- starting with something by Tennyson. But when EnoWeb went looking for more information, it transpired that the main-man artist creating Punctum is Gary Wood, with Noam advising on the language and Brian overseeing the music side.

You are right akin, Brazil is pretty corrupt.

But there is some good news. I was reading in the paper that there are 88 million men and 93 million women in Brazil. That gives us five million more women than men!

In a way, socialism provided the political spectrum with an alternative to the then-outdated nationalist/ conservative movements, which ultimately resulted in two world wars.
Bearing this in mind, I think we can say that "socialism" (as a new way of
main-stream political thinking) paved the way for "progressive music" (as
a new way of writing music).>>

What do you mean by this statement?

I would add that progressive music meant a fusion of musics before it became codified as some sort of virtuosic, epic song writing form. Perhaps wth ELP and later Rush it became more identified with individualism and the unique spirit of excellence the individual can achieve. Where as earlier it was conceived as a communal relationship between band members, audience and music.  Of course, most of these bands had tremendous conflicts within.  Close to the Edge was named because the band was almost ready to break up, not because the music was at the precipice of the real and unreal/ spiritual and material. So in a sense, (innocence) Rush and ELP broke with the romantic ideal of the music by creatiing something mechanistic, metallic, intellectual, dissonant and often quite modern in that respect.

grandoleopry wrote: mithrandir wrote: grandoleopry wrote: Elitist, populist. This doesn't sound to socialistic to me. In fact critics hate prog because it does not reflect the us against the man mentality, the haves against the have nots,the the proletariat against the bourgeoisie They felt that rock was first and foremost a political tool for Marxist Ideal isms and that prog led people away from all the inequality and the injustice. This is why punk was praised as reviving the spirit of rock. The early prog bands were observationalists for the most part and madingley apolitical. Sorry, but in my view the absents of socialism in music was the reason prog was scorned, not embraced. hmm, I guess you're not very familiar with Henry Cow, Faust and Area then are you? Just a theory, why else then? The music is too complicated after downing a couple six packs of Bud? I've really never understood the hatred amongst the rock critics for prog and this was about the most applicable explanation I've run into considering that most journalists get a very liberal education. It would seem naive to dismiss the great influence Marxism holds on young journalists. That's not to say that prog is conservative at all it's just may be perceived that way for the statements I quoted earlier. Remember, Marxist ideals permeate most universities and some political correct pundits would find a fascist under every toilet seat. If you got a better theory then lets hear it, I'm open...

simply put, most music journalists assume that rock(or to a greater degee: pop music) can really be nothing more than just entertainment for adolescents and for those who wish to remain adolescent in their sensibility, (not to say that the immediacy of adolescent emotion doesn't have its placee in the creative process of making music either) the more creative and forward thinking musicians will never be swayed by the critics and will use an "any-means-necessary" approach to get their art recorded, with or without the coorporate backing of a major record label, the DIY ethic was around long before Punk, it always has been, so I don't necessarily think its the politics that gets a band accepted by rock critics, but more the attitude that rock critics think they know whats the best music for the rest of us, they assume the populous is dumb, (and who can blame them when music like the black eyed peas and pink contiue to top the charts?),

Ghost Rider wrote: I think politics and music should not mix - the same as literature and politics. I've always had my own political views, but I think this is not the place to air them.

i disagree. i think that anyway you can express yourself and get your message through is great. without any politics music wouldnt have any conviction. music wouldnt be controversial. and that is what makes music great. just my opinion.

ask the dead kennedys