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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2006 at 02:17
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

The Progtologist wrote:

Quote But I also was raised in a country where everyone is free to practice whatever religion they choose,and are free from prosecution because of it.

I really can't understand you, if your info is correct you live in USA.

A country in which school principals can loose their jobs if the word God is mentioned, a country where God can't be mentioned in public institutions, a country where a Circuit Judge was fired and sued because he commited the sin of hanging the Ten Commandments over his head (Even when he argued that it was a reference to a legal code).

I don't believe people is allowed to practice whatever religion they want, at least not in Public places.

But at the same time a country that accepts that a bunch of Fundamentalists force the Governments of several States to place before any book about evolution "This is only a theory, as valid as Creationism".

So what irrestricted Religious freedom are you talking about?

I'm only going to make this one post. I don't want to debate anything.

1. Concerning those underlined in red: In my personal opinion, lef-wing/right-wing/etc. radical ignoramuses have made these cases so. If the constitution doesn't specifically allow for benign policies reguarding references of God and all other things relating to these subjects, then we should amend it. The USA should strive be a utopia for all people, and if certain people would stop making rediculous arguments like those outlined above, our society would nearly be that. Fundamentalists are the root of all evil, or at least it seems so to me.

Hey Stonebeard, I never said I agree with that, I'm only mentioning FACTS there are at least three cases that reached the Supreme Court in which Principals were fired for allowing religious references.

The case of the circuit Judge is well documented, he lost his position but he was declared innocent (Of course he was never elected again).

I'm against this kind of Fanatism, I don't have a problem with other religions or even Atheism but if something is praising a form of evil that is clearly against 4 big religions, it should be considered offensive.

2. Concerning the one in purple: As long as it isn't obscene or grotesque, I think society has to accomodate for it. Obviously no satanist can slaughter a sheep or anything like that, but a benign religious act should be accommodated. EX: Some people may get offended if, as if out of nowhere, a Muslim gets down on the ground and faces Mecca right in the middle of a sidewalk at midday. They may be offeneded, or felt imposed upon, but the Muslim should be allowed to do it, and the people should not care. It's those people who care about stuff like that, in any religion, society, and political field, and people who try to keep to old ways instead of embracing the future that are the root of all evil.

The Coran or Moslems beliefs are not against any other Religion, by the contrary, they are very similar in many aspects, they have some Fundamentalist, well some Christian groups claim that only white people can go to Heaven and the Bob Jones University didn't allowed dates between people from different races.

Quote Is Bob Jones University guilty of racism because it has a rule restricting interracial dating? Students of all races attend here and live in racial harmony and respect for one another as Christians. If there is discrimination in the policy, which race is discriminated against? Black, white, or yellow? Each person dates within his own race. For there to be discrimination, one race would have to be treated differently than the other.

(...)

Bob Jones University opposes one world, one church, one economy, one military, one race, and unisex. God made racial differences as He made sexual differences. Each race and each sex should be proud to be what God made it, and none should reproach the other.

http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/bob_jones/bju.htm 

Any religious refernce MAY BE dangerous in a public forum (look at the quote, this is how things end some times),  but Satanism is a direct attack to almost every Religion.

BTW: I'm not a Fundamentalist, I'm totally against Fundamentalism (For God's sake, the last time I went to mass was in December because my Grandmother died) even if it comes from Christians or Catholics, I kept my mouth shut when a couple of members made fun the day the Pope (Our spiritual leader and God's direct representative for us) died, even when an idiot insulted his memory, but there's a point when things can get out of hand.

The guy from the signature was reasonable enough to retiire it, i don't even bekllieve he's a Satanist, probably he thought it wa fun to create some reaction, or maybe just found it cool, I don't know or care, but he made he correct decision IMO.

Iván



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2006 at 02:43
Originally posted by Peter Rideout Peter Rideout wrote:

Poor Trotsky was murdered before he had a chance to become corrupt....Ermm

Are you trying to tell me something, Peter?

"Death to Utopia! Death to faith! Death to love! Death to hope?" thunders the 20th century. "Surrender, you pathetic dreamer.”

"No" replies the unhumbled optimist "You are only the present."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2006 at 05:01
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

The Progtologist wrote:

Quote But I also was raised in a country where everyone is free to practice whatever religion they choose,and are free from prosecution because of it.

I really can't understand you, if your info is correct you live in USA.

A country in which school principals can loose their jobs if the word God is mentioned, a country where God can't be mentioned in public institutions, a country where a Circuit Judge was fired and sued because he commited the sin of hanging the Ten Commandments over his head (Even when he argued that it was a reference to a legal code).

I don't believe people is allowed to practice whatever religion they want, at least not in Public places.

But at the same time a country that accepts that a bunch of Fundamentalists force the Governments of several States to place before any book about evolution "This is only a theory, as valid as Creationism".

So what irrestricted Religious freedom are you talking about?

I'm only going to make this one post. I don't want to debate anything.

1. Concerning those underlined in red: In my personal opinion, lef-wing/right-wing/etc. radical ignoramuses have made these cases so. If the constitution doesn't specifically allow for benign policies reguarding references of God and all other things relating to these subjects, then we should amend it. The USA should strive be a utopia for all people, and if certain people would stop making rediculous arguments like those outlined above, our society would nearly be that. Fundamentalists are the root of all evil, or at least it seems so to me.

Hey Stonebeard, I never said I agree with that, I'm only mentioning FACTS there are at least three cases that reached the Supreme Court in which Principals were fired for allowing religious references.

The case of the circuit Judge is well documented, he lost his position but he was declared innocent (Of course he was never elected again).

I'm against this kind of Fanatism, I don't have a problem with other religions or even Atheism but if something is praising a form of evil that is clearly against 4 big religions, it should be considered offensive.

2. Concerning the one in purple: As long as it isn't obscene or grotesque, I think society has to accomodate for it. Obviously no satanist can slaughter a sheep or anything like that, but a benign religious act should be accommodated. EX: Some people may get offended if, as if out of nowhere, a Muslim gets down on the ground and faces Mecca right in the middle of a sidewalk at midday. They may be offeneded, or felt imposed upon, but the Muslim should be allowed to do it, and the people should not care. It's those people who care about stuff like that, in any religion, society, and political field, and people who try to keep to old ways instead of embracing the future that are the root of all evil.

The Coran or Moslems beliefs are not against any other Religion, by the contrary, they are very similar in many aspects, they have some Fundamentalist, well some Christian groups claim that only white people can go to Heaven and the Bob Jones University didn't allowed dates between people from different races.

Quote Is Bob Jones University guilty of racism because it has a rule restricting interracial dating? Students of all races attend here and live in racial harmony and respect for one another as Christians. If there is discrimination in the policy, which race is discriminated against? Black, white, or yellow? Each person dates within his own race. For there to be discrimination, one race would have to be treated differently than the other.

(...)

Bob Jones University opposes one world, one church, one economy, one military, one race, and unisex. God made racial differences as He made sexual differences. Each race and each sex should be proud to be what God made it, and none should reproach the other.

http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/bob_jones/bju.htm 

Any religious refernce MAY BE dangerous in a public forum (look at the quote, this is how things end some times),  but Satanism is a direct attack to almost every Religion.

BTW: I'm not a Fundamentalist, I'm totally against Fundamentalism (For God's sake, the last time I went to mass was in December because my Grandmother died) even if it comes from Christians or Catholics, I kept my mouth shut when a couple of members made fun the day the Pope (Our spiritual leader and God's direct representative for us) died, even when an idiot insulted his memory, but there's a point when things can get out of hand.

The guy from the signature was reasonable enough to retiire it, i don't even bekllieve he's a Satanist, probably he thought it wa fun to create some reaction, or maybe just found it cool, I don't know or care, but he made he correct decision IMO.

Iván

Its unfair to single out a religion, in this case, Satanism, and say that ITS symbols cannot be expressed but others can.  Simply having that symbol there was hardly an attack on anyone's belief system.  It should be either no religous symbolism whatsoever or all of its aloud.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2006 at 09:44
Originally posted by int_2375 int_2375 wrote:



Lord Cthulhu, give me strength to overcome the easily offended.





...and the battle of signatures begins.

At the risk of offending any Satanists , I wanted to say my piece about Satanism as a viable "religion". Personally, I find it a childish excuse for a belief system. In it's simple rejection of the Judeo-Islamic-Christian God, it's essentially affirming it. At least that's the way I view it. It's a shallow excuse for hedonism, IMO.

Anyway, Stonebeard, as Ivan stated, he was simply pointing out the apparent hypocrisy in "separation of church and state" policies here, and frankly, he's got a very valid point. I agree with many of your comments, though.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2006 at 12:23
Satanism is such a muddy concept that it's impossible to tell what anyone means by affirming a belief in it.

A little like atheism
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2006 at 13:01

I've just made this sig in Paint in about 30 seconds. Is it appropriate?

It could offend neo-prog fans.

 -- Ivan

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2006 at 13:03

Empathy wrote:

Quote ...and the battle of signatures begins.

At the risk of offending any Satanists , I wanted to say my piece about Satanism as a viable "religion". Personally, I find it a childish excuse for a belief system. In it's simple rejection of the Judeo-Islamic-Christian God, it's essentially affirming it. At least that's the way I view it. It's a shallow excuse for hedonism, IMO.

That's my point precisely, Satanism isn't considered a formal religion, because it's main purposeis to attack the beliefs of other religions (Most of them), this is not Atheism, which is a valid position, this is ANTI Theism, ewhich ois a form of discrimination.

A few years ago I saw on TV a guy from one Satanic group making a scandal because the IRS and later the Supreme Court denied for hem the tax exemption granted to every Church, so apparently the Supreme Court who always cared about protection to the suposedly rights of the minorities, considered that Satanism wasn't a valid religion.

Not even the watchers of the rights protested against this decision.

Anyway, Stonebeard, as Ivan stated, he was simply pointing out the apparent hypocrisy in "separation of church and state" policies here, and frankly, he's got a very valid point. I agree with many of your comments, though.

Thanks Empathy, that's exactly what I pretended, I believe the right watchers go too far sometimes and theCourts fall in their game. Judges are afraid to take rational decistions because the ACLU (Not sure aboutthe letters) may fall against them and acuse them of harrassing the minorities.

It's absurd that a Judge can't place theJewish Tables of the Law, because want it or not, like it or hate it, it's a legal code so it has aplace in a courtroom.

Why ban religious teachings in Public Schools? Maybe make it optional, this will be an irerestrict respect to the freedom of everybody, if you don't want to take a Religion class, well, you have 20 other options.

The problem is politic and economic, every Religion will ask for classes and there would be no budget to pay teachers for every Religion in all schools, and the politicians can't allow that, because minorities also vote.

But on the other hand and because the Intelligent Design followers also vote, they are allowedto put in books about evolution that thisis only a theory as valid as Creationism or Intelligent Design.

Sorry guys, but I find this absolutely contradictory, even when I believe in God and Evolution (Which is probably some form of Intelligent Design, which is close to my beliefs), but to place thatb Evolution is only a theory is absurd even for me.

USA in their fight to protect the right of everybody is falling in the limitation of the rights of everybody. If you can't teach every Religion....Don't teach anyone. If you can't teach Ateism (Well hard issue to teach about except for some humanist Philosophies) then don't mention God.

As Bob Jones said I don't discriminate banning interracial dates, because I ban them for everybody......Holy God!!!!!! Thanks Heaven his tax exemption as University has been revoked.

Iván

 



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2006 at 13:07
Originally posted by goose goose wrote:

Satanism is such a muddy concept that it's impossible to tell what anyone means by affirming a belief in it.

A little like atheism


At least atheism is frequently the result of logical deduction, based on an analysis of the empirical evidence.

The only problem with that approach is that you can't always only believe what your senses tell you.




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2006 at 13:09
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Sorry not offending, only an example which I hate as much as any normal human being:

Tristan Mulders: And what if any member changes his signature to:

 

Would you find it offensive enough???????

Iván

 

Definitely... but than you're promoting mass murders who have hurt people emotionally from all over the world, not looking at religions..

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2006 at 14:21

Originally posted by Empathy Empathy wrote:

Originally posted by goose goose wrote:

Satanism is such a muddy concept that it's impossible to tell what anyone means by affirming a belief in it.

A little like atheism


At least atheism is frequently the result of logical deduction, based on an analysis of the empirical evidence.

The only problem with that approach is that you can't always only believe what your senses tell you.




True. So logically both worshippers of God and worshippers of Satan are equally entitled to their beliefs. Whether they're morally entitled to them is another matter... 

One more thing: I sported some Buddhist quotes in my sig a while ago - would they also be frowned upon?

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2006 at 14:48
Not by me! 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2006 at 14:50

Thanks, but you're no admin! 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2006 at 18:14

Originally posted by Empathy Empathy wrote:

Originally posted by int_2375 int_2375 wrote:



Lord Cthulhu, give me strength to overcome the easily offended.





...and the battle of signatures begins.

At the risk of offending any Satanists , I wanted to say my piece about Satanism as a viable "religion". Personally, I find it a childish excuse for a belief system. In it's simple rejection of the Judeo-Islamic-Christian God, it's essentially affirming it. At least that's the way I view it. It's a shallow excuse for hedonism, IMO.

Satanism is in fact very immature... all religion basically is.
According to Nietzche:
"Faith: not wanting to know the truth."

For most people religion is an excuse to hide from the truth that there probably is nothing after death.  The only mature thing to do is to make rational conclusions about the universe for yourself based on what you observe.  Trust thyself.

If the Judeo-Islamic-Christian God is in fact real then he's enough of an asshole that I wouldn't worship him on principle anyway.

As childish as Satanism is, the others aren't far above it, if only because it takes faith to believe in any of them.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2006 at 18:36
Originally posted by ivansfr0st ivansfr0st wrote:

I've just made this sig in Paint in about 30 seconds. Is it appropriate?

It could offend neo-prog fans.

 -- Ivan

BAN HIM!!!!

IT'S OFFENSIVE!!!!

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2006 at 22:06
Originally posted by Tristan Mulders Tristan Mulders wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Sorry not offending, only an example which I hate as much as any normal human being:

Tristan Mulders: And what if any member changes his signature to:

 

Would you find it offensive enough???????

Iván

 

Definitely... but than you're promoting mass murders who have hurt people emotionally from all over the world, not looking at religions..

Just in case, I'm not promoting anything, it was just an example, there's nothing as repulsive as the Nazi party or the lunatic and nurderer followers.

I agree it's offensive, as i believe some other things are offensive, but others don't,  take for example that coexistence message, I find perfectly valid, he's not attacking anybody the message promotes unity (Even if the guy is trying to make a point).

Iván



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2006 at 20:55
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Tristan Mulders Tristan Mulders wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Sorry not offending, only an example which I hate as much as any normal human being:

Tristan Mulders: And what if any member changes his signature to:

 

Would you find it offensive enough???????

Iván

 

Definitely... but than you're promoting mass murders who have hurt people emotionally from all over the world, not looking at religions..

Just in case, I'm not promoting anything, it was just an example, there's nothing as repulsive as the Nazi party or the lunatic and nurderer followers.

I agree it's offensive, as i believe some other things are offensive, but others don't,  take for example that coexistence message, I find perfectly valid, he's not attacking anybody the message promotes unity (Even if the guy is trying to make a point).

Iván

Good idea.  I made a new sig to promote unity.  Unfortunately your thread does not promote unity.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2006 at 21:14

Originally posted by int_2375 int_2375 wrote:

Good idea.  I made a new sig to promote unity.  Unfortunately your thread does not promote unity.

Never said anything about your signature even when it was an attempt to make a mockery of things some of us believe in. As a fact I said good words about it

Now your reaction is absolutely childish as a baby making noise in a desperate attempt to be heard, espécially when this thread has been closed for more than a week.

But probably because you aren't able to be listened in musical terms you create a contradictory and absolutely moronic statement in your signature.

Ok, if you want to be remembered as the Revolutionary wannabe  idiot go on, it's not my problem any more, I have more important things to worry about in my life and in this forum.

Iván

 

            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2006 at 22:30
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by int_2375 int_2375 wrote:

Good idea.  I made a new sig to promote unity.  Unfortunately your thread does not promote unity.

Never said anything about your signature even when it was an attempt to make a mockery of things some of us believe in. As a fact I said good words about it

Now your reaction is absolutely childish as a baby making noise in a desperate attempt to be heard, espécially when this thread has been closed for more than a week.

But probably because you aren't able to be listened in musical terms you create a contradictory and absolutely moronic statement in your signature.

Ok, if you want to be remembered as the Revolutionary wannabe  idiot go on, it's not my problem any more, I have more important things to worry about in my life and in this forum.

Iván

 

I'm not the one who had the "coexistence" signature, for your information.

I have no idea what "you aren't able to be listened in musical terms" means.  Sorry, I just couldn't interpret your English in this case.  (No offense, I know its not your primary language).

I'm merely pointing out how stupid you starting this thread was.  You were so offended by a symbol on the internet that you had to make a thread to report it.  Now THAT'S "as childish as a baby making noise".  Why should everyone bend over backwards for easily offended persons such as yourself?  Your opinion that it is offensive is irrelevant and represents the minority of this board, based on most of the responses I saw.

Basically my signature is the same as the Coexistence one, which you complimented, only I used Satanism and Christianity, and suddenly you found it offensive.  You are so completely negative about some things I just have to call you on it.  "I don't like this sig, make it gone", "Phil Collins ruined Genesis".

You took the bait, hook, line, and sinker when you replied to my signature, showing just how hypocritical you are.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2006 at 23:17
Originally posted by int_2375 int_2375 wrote:

I'm not the one who had the "coexistence" signature, for your information.

I should had imagined you were incapable of something like that.

I have no idea what "you aren't able to be listened in musical terms" means.  Sorry, I just couldn't interpret your English in this case.  (No offense, I know its not your primary language).

I haven't read any interesting or trascendental contribution from your part to this forum or to Prog Archives.

And BTW: I'm entitled to feel offended by messages against my beliefs, if the Administration and owners agree, well you should accept it and if not, I will have to do the same thing.

I'm merely pointing out how stupid you starting this thread was.  You were so offended by a symbol on the internet that you had to make a thread to report it.  Now THAT'S "as childish as a baby making noise". 

Because this forum is a place where civility and respect almost always is present, but this concepts may be too complex your understanding.

Why should everyone bend over backwards for easily offended persons such as yourself?  Your opinion that it is offensive is irrelevant and represents the minority of this board, based on most of the responses I saw.

You haven't been here enough time, I've read posts asking to ban name of albums because they contain profanities, and I gave my position in disagreement, but never had the "brilliant" idea to choose worst names or lyrics to make mockery of other person's beliefs.

Basically my signature is the same as the Coexistence one, which you complimented, only I used Satanism and Christianity, and suddenly you found it offensive. 

That is a natural contradiction and a silly attempt to attack our beliefs with the excuse of plutrality.

Nobody can love Jesus and Satan at the same time unless he's an idiot, because a person that represents divinity for many and goodness for almost every religion, can't be worshipped with the evil simultaneously. 

Coexistance doesn't say I am Christian, Jewis and Moslem at the same time, it only gives a message using the three religious symbols,

 You are so completely negative about some things I just have to call you on it.  "I don't like this sig, make it gone", "Phil Collins ruined Genesis".

Phil Collins is another issue, this is a musical forum to express musical opinions mainly, not to promote something that will attack personal beliefs of other members.

If somebody doesn't like a band or a musician he's free to do it, but to attackl the basis of ANY religion, is not correct.

You took the bait, hook, line, and sinker when you replied to my signature, showing just how hypocritical you are.

If I ever had problems is because I can't be an hypocrite, if I see something black I say it, the same if it's white, better dedicate to talk about music than to provoke justified reactions of the people.

Iván



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2006 at 00:19
The Church of Satan is one of the most misunderstood churches on earth, and to tell the truth, we like it that way. We like knowing we are the 'black sheep' of the world. We like to shock, annoy, pester, and generally offend those who we feel are 'blind and obedient'. It's only because we are the anti-religious anti-righteous Atheist sect. You guys just go to prove that you fear most that which you misunderstand most.
Try reading up on LaVeyan Satanism --- it's the closest thing to Buddhism without being trampled by these (dare I say) Christian zealots.

And about the DXM part, if you're offended by a little reference to OTC medicine chances are you're unsafe in the real world. Nobody would complain if there was a picture of a cup of coffee, even though (in my eyes) caffeine is the most commonly abused drug known to man.

The only reason I removed the image was because the mod asked nicely and I agreed to play by his rules.

Let's not forget that everybody has their own right to their own flag, own activities, and own religious (or in my case anti-religious) beliefs. Just remember that at a certain point it's best to stop pressuring people to hide away their identities.
You may not have come to terms with who somebody is, but it doesn't mean they can't express themselves.

I have to admit, for an online board for music that is a direct product of the Liberal way of life, there sure are a lot of close-minded people on here when it comes to social values.

I'd also like to add that my participation on these boards will likely be brief; I get treated a lot better and taken more seriously on the Dextroverse.

BTW Sorry mods, this has nothing to do with you. But hey, Spring Cleaning is just around the corner! Maybe you can get some of the fundamentalists out of here before they wreck the place


Edited by DeepPhreeze
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