Communism in Prog - Progressive Rock Music Forum

Author

Message

Topic Search

Topic Options

Someo Therguy View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: November 30 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 274

Posted: December 21 2005 at 00:03

Communism in Prague!?

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535

Posted: December 21 2005 at 00:11

Just saw your latest post ... as a lawyer you must know where you're coming from, I assume you have studied some sort of logic also. Do you want me to argue that as a Christian, you are closer to a Satanist than an atheist is?

I agree that we believe in the existence of the devil satan or however you want to call him.

But we don't share a common ground with him, in the case of Facism, Nazism and Communism, there are lots of common grounds.

For any right wing person the words:

Land reform
Expropiation
Confiscation
People's Army
Strong central power
Communalization
Profit sharing
Sequestration of profits

Among others are a sin, but you can find each and every one in Marxism, Facism and Nazism.

But again, you never called me a Facist, I think you're too intelligent to do that, this wasn't against your beliefs.

BTW: I don't share his beliefs, as a fact I disagree but honestly I respect Trotsky much more than any communist leader like Stalin (Despite he was co-founder ofthe Polit Boureau), but I can accept more easily Social Democracy than radical Bolshevikism (Again despite he considered himself a Bolshevik).

Iván

Trotsky

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 25 2004
Location: Malaysia
Status: Offline
Points: 2771

Posted: December 21 2005 at 03:38

ivan_2068 wrote:

I agree that we believe in the existence of the devil satan or however you want to call him.

But we don't share a common ground with him, in the case of Facism, Nazism and Communism, there are lots of common grounds.

For any right wing person the words:

Land reform
Expropiation
Confiscation
People's Army
Strong central power
Communalization
Profit sharing
Sequestration of profits

Among others are a sin, but you can find each and every one in Marxism, Facism and Nazism.

But again, you never called me a Facist, I think you're too intelligent to do that, this wasn't against your beliefs.

Iván

... I'm sure you know the common ground stems from the fact that Fascism and Nazism arose out of the ashes of World War I, when communism was a great threat to the industrialised/imperialist/capitalist blocks of Europe, with unemployment and inflation sky-rocketing and most of these economies shell-shocked and German in particular facing crippling war reparations ...

In the midst of this to counter the growing appeal of the Socialist and Communist parties, the right wing became more extreme in its determination to hold onto power ... and borrowed many of the ideas that had appeal ... which is not to say that most, if not all of these ideas, didn't predate Marx and Engels

Mussolini and Hitler were opportunistic characters who saw the appeal of those ideas and warped it to their own benefit ... although Hitler's Jewish atrocities are rightly the most widely publicised of their crimes against humanity ... the first targets of these guys were often the Socialists and Communists ... (and of course, many of the central Marxist figures were Jewish).

I don't have to tell you which side the Catholic church (to which both you and I belong) chose to support.

"Death to Utopia! Death to faith! Death to love! Death to hope?" thunders the 20th century. "Surrender, you pathetic dreamer.”

"No" replies the unhumbled optimist "You are only the present."

Korova

Forum Senior Member

Joined: November 04 2005
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 189

Posted: December 21 2005 at 05:41

Korova wrote:

this poll shows just how many stupid things people can say abuot communism...having never read a single word written by Marx, Lenin, Che Guevera or Gramsci.

Probably I read more Marx and Engels in University than you during all your live (BTW: Also read Utopia), and about el Che, he had nothing to do in Cuba or Bolivia.

How you dare to say USA shouldn't participate in foreign conflicts,and we must accept that an Argentinian terrorist should be participating in Cuba and Bolivia?

Why everybody was happy when USA supported Fidel Castro against Batista? Why all the leftist guys kept silence when
USSR invaded Afghanistan and now the same guys attack USA?

Is widely known that USA never supported Castro, but they supported Batista, and almost every rich american buisness man went to Cuba for his holidays bringing more money for their beloved dictator. Cuba before the revolution was even worst than now. Because, if you don't know it, many people from all over the world choose to be cured in Cuba because they have the best hospital and medical cure are for everyone not just for who pays a powerful insurance company. And they even have one of the higest educational leve of the world because every child goes to school. So perhaps your readign of Che Guevara was a bit uncareful.
Yes, USA are not allowed to move war to anyone without a resolution of the United Nations as every other country in the world. Bush is not an emperor, he must respect the international rigths, and I believe he should be punished for the damage caused to the Iraq people especially for what happned in Falluja, where an entire city was burned to find just a little gruop of terrorist. Che Guevara did not burn the farmer's house, and that is the reason why he was helped by the cuban people during the revolution.

Ivàn seys we are free...but the question is free of doing what? A small gruop of person rule this world and use his power to become everyday more rich, and we have to pay them a lot of money to have things that we should have for right.

So in Cuba the people control everything? In China' Vietnam? Laos? ex- USSR? Cambodia (Or as you probably like more the ex-Democratic Campuchea)?

I never said that. The country you are talking about never saw communism, they just suffred an oligarchy who used the word communism just to be helped by the USSR and reach the power. (In fact the history of the USSR is different and much more complex than you think)

It's always a small group who controls most things with the differencet is that in Communist Governments the party controls everything, call it Politburo or whatever you want, but a bunch of people control EVERYTHING and supress all freedom.

About this I agree with you but you have to recognise that if you read Marx you find that this is not the aim of communism

At least in democratic countries you can say fu*k Bush and nothing happens, try to do that in Cuba

Just to end, What do you desserve to have by right that you can't earn with your work? Don't you believe that guys like Bill Gates have earned the last cent he has? Do you want him to share it with you? What have you done to deserve that?

Because I am an human being just as he is.

I'm not rich, I don't even have a secure job, but I simply don't envy the guys that have more than me, probably thet deserve it and I don't.

So was Jesus Christ envy when he said that rich people had to give up their goods?

So what the hell you people are talking about?

First to speak, read.

Not only I read, but I LIVED IN A ONCE COMMUNIST COUNTRY so you won't teach me your theories from the comfort and freedom provided by Italy.

Well you know, I LIVE IN A ONCE FASCIST COUNTRY, so please don't say again that Communism is near to Fascism because I FIND IT OFFENSIVE (and this is the second time I say it).
What about the confort and freedom in Italy? Do you know what the Berlusconi government is doing to turn our democracy in oligarchy? Do you know what all the political class did after the war since the early '90 to prevent the growth of the communist party even with the help of the CIA? And do you know that in Italy there are people in jail just for their left-wing or communist ideals? Do you know who Adriano Sofri is? He is an innocent accused of a murder wich now is proved he never committed, but he's still inprisoned and Berlusconi don't let him free just because he is a communist even now that he had a bad heart attack. Italy is a country ruled by the media that are all in the hand of one person. And there is a small group of capitalist that currupt the politicians to have more power and more "freedom" but obviusly only for them. How can you call this?

Edited by Korova

La Speranza della coscienza è forza
La Speranza del sentimento è schiavitù
La Speranza del corpo è malattia
(G.I. Gurdjieff)

Cifaxon

Forum Newbie

Joined: September 17 2005
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 9

Posted: December 21 2005 at 10:39

CAPTAIN BEYOND RESPONDS: Maybe Democracy would have come to Europe, maybe it wouldn't have. Maybe some of these other great guys would have rejected the power given to them, maybe they wouldn't have. George Washington (the general given most of the credit for winning the American War of Independence) was unanimously chosen to continue to serve as America's president. He was the most famous and popular guy in the country. If he claimed the presidency, no one would have complained. By essentially refusing to be made king, George Washington did what was never done in the history of mankind (to the best of my knowledge) (and if you think refusing a kingship is easy, check out every single attempt at communism). Without him doing this, there probably never would have been a USA. Without a USA, it is doubtful that any other country would have tried this experiment.

do you really think that if instead of President Washington it had been King George, history would have changed so radically? what I said and what I'm saying is that in those conditions, with presidence or with kingship, with or without Washington, democracy took place. in USA, in western Europe, in South America. and "those conditions" are capitalism. by the way, capitalism and representative democracy are also compatible with monarchy. (Sweden, Norway, Belgium, USA allies UK and Spain)

CAPTAIN BEYOND RESPONDS: No offense taken. I just differ with you substantially. For one, we HAVE to take the role of world police because 1) there are a lot of psychos out there and 2) no one else has the balls to step up to the plate. Second, I don't think that Freedom is something that can be "imposed." Freedom is the greatest of all ways of living. Why is freedom OK for you but for someone who is living under a military dictator? The question I have for you is why do you support the Husseins, Ahmedinejads, the Assads, the Arafats and many other people who steal from their people, kill their people, mutilate their people, gang rape their people, deny most rights to women and all rights to gays? It seems to me that you would allow these people to continue functioning the way they always have--through fear and intimidation.

I definitely don't support any kind of dictator: not Saddam, not Castro, not Videla, not Pinochet. but I'm saying that behind that police role lie economical and geopolitical neocolonialistic interests. the ghost of terrorism is used politically to legitimate governments and their foreign affairs politics, while terrorism itself isn't even one of the greatest problems in the world in my opinion. just consider the number of deaths it produces, in contrast only with deaths by hunger. not even in Africa, in many capitalist industrialised countries...

anyway, this has gone very much off the subject

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535

Posted: December 21 2005 at 13:52

Korova wrote:

My answers are in blue

this poll shows just how many stupid things people can say abuot communism...having never read a single word written by Marx, Lenin, Che Guevera or Gramsci.

Probably I read more Marx and Engels in University than you during all your live (BTW: Also read Utopia), and about el Che, he had nothing to do in Cuba or Bolivia.

How you dare to say USA shouldn't participate in foreign conflicts,and we must accept that an Argentinian terrorist should be participating in Cuba and Bolivia?

Why everybody was happy when USA supported Fidel Castro against Batista? Why all the leftist guys kept silence when
USSR invaded Afghanistan and now the same guys attack USA?

Is widely known that USA never supported Castro, but they supported Batista, and almost every rich american buisness man went to Cuba for his holidays bringing more money for their beloved dictator.

Beep......Wrong my friend, read a bit of history, USA Government supported Fidel Castro's Revolution at the start, until CASTRO'S closest collaborators AND HIS OWN SISTER (Juanita Castro) declared that he was taking Cuba to Communism and that they fought against a tiranic Government but didn't wanted to fall in the hands of another dictator.

All the world was against Batista, he was a bloody criminal, but there was no need fopr a Communist Government, especially when that wasn't offered to all the people that supported therevolution.

At first The United States supported the revolution of Fidel and his buddies, until it became obvious that this new Castro Regime had some different ideas about how the country would be run. http://www.pbs.org/adventuredivas/cuba/curricula/history_3.h tml

USA supported a suposedly democratic movement destined to remove a dictator but they are not forced to support a Government that is a menace against their way of life and the system elected by their citizens.

Of course the investors and the casino mafia was happy with Batista, butthat's not the Goovernment

Cuba before the revolution was even worst than now.

Beep....Wrong again, when a few Cubans wanted to leave the country, Fidel opened the prisons and sent all this people to our embassy, one of my collaborators in the company I usedto work used to say "When Batista was President we ate sh!t, now that Fidel is Presiden't we don't even eat sh!t"

But I don't support Batista because he was a bloody dictator, but since Castro is President (Without elections of course) more people has died in the jails and at least 40% of the population has escaped from your so called páradise risking their lives in rubber boats.

Why do they escape is Cuba is so wonderful? Did Cuba closed their frontiers to avoid people from comming to their paradise or did they cloised them to avoid that all the population escaped????

Because, if you don't know it, many people from all over the world choose to be cured in Cuba because they have the best hospital and medical cure are for everyone not just for who pays a powerful insurance company.

Beep...Wrong again and this I can tell you because it happened to me, nobody told me.

I was in a hotel in Varadero and broke a teeth in an accident, I went to the dentist.

First it was a dirty big room with chairs all around the doctor's work station, he didn't cleaned the artifacts after using them in any patient, no medicines availlable, so I only accepted a bit of cement because any invasive treatment would be risky of hepatitis B or Aids.

Of course he charged me US$ 300.00 (Not as free as you say) for a bit of cement (This costs in my country maybe US$ 25.00 at the most and in USA maybe US$ 50.00) so I can't talk about a good health system because I'm wittness.

And they even have one of the higest educational leve of the world because every child goes to school.

Yes, the girl than cleaned my toilet in the hotel wa an engeneer and her husband who served the drinks was a doctor, they recieve 140 pesos a mont which represents US$ 7.00, the tips are forbidden (Well any humanitarian person doesn't care for that prohibition) and the only extra benefit they have is that they can take the leftovers from the buffetts to their families.

All the people who worked in the hotels were proffesional, but of course they knew nothing about theoir careers, because a doctor has as much classes of Marxism as classes of medicine.

So what's the point of being a professional if you have to clean the crap of the tourists?????

Do you know that people with AIDS is sent to a mini island that works almost as a leprasorium and isolate them from the rest of the population...very advance medicine and very human.

Tell this wonderful histories to anybody that hasn't been there.

So perhaps your readign of Che Guevara was a bit uncareful.

He was uncareful, but he also had no business in Cuba or Bolivia.

Yes, USA are not allowed to move war to anyone without a resolution of the United Nations as every other country in the world. Bush is not an emperor, he must respect the international rigths, and I believe he should be punished for the damage caused to the Iraq people especially for what happned in Falluja, where an entire city was burned to find just a little gruop of terrorist.

I don't necesarilly agree with all USA actions either.

Che Guevara did not burn the farmer's house, and that is the reason why he was helped by the cuban people during the revolution.

Ok, lets talk about Ernesto Che Guevara:

First he took no part in student Revolutionary movements in Buenos Aires because he was more interested in finishing his career.
He had no bussines in Cuba, but still he took part in a foreign revolution, and was betrayed by Fidel Castro in 1965 because he was a danger to Cuban relations with the USSR.
He was not a Communist, he was really an anarchist, he was against organized Capitalism and Communism.
Without any right to do so, he took 140 Cubans and tried to turn towards communism the Democratic oriented revolution of Congo (Kinshasa). What right did he had to do that??? How Communist dare to criticize USA when this was in an invasion?
Ke was kicked out of Congo.
Again with no right he went to Bolivia and tried to organize a Communist revolution where he was killed.

So better stop throwing stones to other countries when Communists have a glass roof!!!!

So in Cuba the people control everything? In China' Vietnam? Laos? ex- USSR? Cambodia (Or as you probably like more the ex-Democratic Campuchea)?

But they were communist governments and you can't deny that. And by the way USSR didn't helped them because they were so nice, they helped this countries because they needed strategic locations all around the world to put their misiles and plant an occupation army.

The invasion of Afghanistan is a great example, it was a masacre thousands if not millions of Afghans were killed, so how you criticize USA?, and USSR was not attacked.

About this I agree with you but you have to recognise that if you read Marx you find that this is not the aim of communism

But it's the way it works, what is more important than theory. Commutist doctrine valuates the praxis (action) much more than the theory.

Because I am an human being just as he is.

But you didn't invented a computer system that is being used in all the world, your contribution to humanity is 0 compared with his, he invested his money, effort and knowledge, he deserves what he gained.

I'm not rich, I don't even have a secure job, but I simply don't envy the guys that have more than me, probably thet deserve it and I don't.

So was Jesus Christ envy when he said that rich people had to give up their goods?

But Jesus Christ also said there will be poor always.

And by the way, he is God and I'm just a human.

So what the hell you people are talking about?

First to speak, read.

Not only I read, but I LIVED IN A ONCE COMMUNIST COUNTRY so you won't teach me your theories from the comfort and freedom provided by Italy.

Well you know, I LIVE IN A ONCE FASCIST COUNTRY, so please don't say again that Communism is near to Fascism because I FIND IT OFFENSIVE (and this is the second time I say it).

Read the Nazi and Facist Manifestos, are almost IDENTICAL to communist manfesto, the three talk about nationalizations, land reforms, cooperativism, people's army, etc, you just need to read them, I didn't invented a word.

BTW: Unless you were born in 1930, I doubt you lived in a Facist country, because if what you say is true I also lived in a colony of Spain.

I suffered the Communism of Velazco, I was there, nobody told me.

What about the confort and freedom in Italy? Do you know what the Berlusconi government is doing to turn our democracy in oligarchy?

The majority of Italians choosed Berlusconi in a democratic election which he won wth an amazing 53% of the votes (This can seem short in a two party system as USA but in Italy where you have a lot of parties is amazing), people wanted him, but due to the election mechanism you can send him to his house (What I don't believe will happen because Casa delle Libertà has 49.7% of approval in the last polls), something that doesn't happen in Communist countries where Presidents are for ever.

But in this case you are in the minority, so you have to accept the rules of Democracy or go to live in paradisiac Cuba, but do it fast because Castro may die soon (Due to his advanced age) and I'm sure that Communism will die with him.

Do you know what all the political class did after the war since the early '90 to prevent the growth of the communist party even with the help of the CIA?

Who started that? Do you remeber the Red Brigades who killed Aldo Moro, Leamon Hunt, Licio Giorgieri, etc and commited a lot of crimes including the kidnapping of James Dossier (Who was rescued before being murdered)?? Each government has the duty to protect their country for what they considered a threat, they were elected by the majority who wanted this.

And do you know that in Italy there are people in jail just for their left-wing or communist ideals? Do you know who Adriano Sofri is? He is an innocent accused of a murder wich now is proved he never committed, but he's still inprisoned and Berlusconi don't let him free just because he is a communist even now that he had a bad heart attack.

Adriano Sofri was accused of the murder of Comisario Calabresi by Leonardo Marino, another member of his own movement (Lotta), not by the oligarchy or by the police, it was his own partner.

He had not one, but three trials and the penalty was confirmed, I read there were many doubts but he has not been proved innocent as you say.

At the end he was found guilty by the Judicial power, not by Mr. Berlusconi.

Maybe it's a mistake of the system and it's unfair, but at least he recieved three trials, not as people like the mentioned Armando Valladares that suffered 24 years of prison without any trial, or the millions of jews executed by Stalin or the 20% of citizens of Cambodia killed by Pol Pot and the Kmer Rouge.

If he had a heart attack it's a duty of the Government to provide him medical treatment not to set him free.

BTW: Sofri is in Prison since April 27, 1990 and Berlusconi is Prime Minister since 1994, so it's hard to blame him for Sofri's imprisonment.

Italy is a country ruled by the media that are all in the hand of one person. And there is a small group of capitalist that currupt the politicians to have more power and more "freedom" but obviusly only for them. How can you call this?

Well, 53% of the people agree with this and in Communist countries ALL THE POWER IS IN THE HANDS OF ONE PERSON.

Iván

Korova

Forum Senior Member

Joined: November 04 2005
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 189

Posted: December 21 2005 at 17:20

Ivàn...speak with you is useless..and it's just a waste of time, you just go on telling lies and pretending taht all the world must agree wiht you. So wil never speak with you again. Bye

Edited by Korova

La Speranza della coscienza è forza
La Speranza del sentimento è schiavitù
La Speranza del corpo è malattia
(G.I. Gurdjieff)

cmidkiff

Forum Senior Member

Joined: March 08 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 208

Posted: December 21 2005 at 17:37

You guys keep refering to communist countries but there are none, never was, and I bet there never will be. Human nature (self centeredness and greed) would never let it work in a large scale like for a government/country.

cmidkiff

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535

Posted: December 21 2005 at 19:45

Korova wrote:

Ivàn...speak with you is useless..and it's just a waste of time, you just go on telling lies and pretending taht all the world must agree wiht you. So wil never speak with you again. Bye

Don't you dare to say I lie, every word I wrote is backuped by a quote, I discussed in this forum with guys that are 100 times more prepared than you are and always was respectful.

Tell me where I lie:

The Nazi Manifesto?: http://www.schoolshistory.org.uk/ASLevel_History/25pointnsda pprogramme.htm

The Facist Manifesto: Wikipedia

The real Adriano Sofrri story: http://www.clarin.com/suplementos/cultura/2000/03/19/e-00601 d.htm

What I said about the Red Brigades: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Brigades

What I said about USA supporting Castro at the beginning of the revolution: http://www.pbs.org/adventuredivas/cuba/curricula/history_3.h tml

What I said about el Che Guevara: http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/8702/bio2.html

I can trace each and every word I said, you can only say cliche phrases and whine because you don't have the money that Bill Gates has even who haven't done anything in your live to earn it.

If there are lies or half truths, they come from your side:

You wrote:

Well you know, I LIVE IN A ONCE FASCIST COUNTRY

But you didn't said that it was Facist maybe 50 years before you were born

Again you wrote:

I proved you Sofri was sent to prison FOR MURDER after 3 trials and 4 years before Berlusconi was Prime Minister.

BTW: Just found that Berlusconi asked for a pardon for Sofri, so everything you said is a LIE (Sorry, probably you're not a liar, most surely you don't have the slightest idea about what you write).

Over 300 members of parliament, from both government and opposition parties, subsequently called for Adriano Sofri to be granted a presidential pardon. Although the President and Prime Minister indicated their support for a pardon, the Minister of Justice blocked it,

Source: http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/Ita-summary-eng Amnesty International

So, the criminal Berlusconi who according to your "expert opinion" kept Sofri in prison, really SUPPORTED A PARDON FOR SOFRI, sorry kid, you better get informed of what happens in your own country before daring to talk about the rest of the world.

After discovering you don't even know what happens in your own country, I better won't care anymore about you.

Iván

Edited by ivan_2068

Atkingani

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: October 21 2005
Location: Terra Brasilis
Status: Offline
Points: 12288

Posted: December 21 2005 at 20:41

I would like to know if capitalism (or whatever new name it receives) is able to take millions from poverty and misery in Sub-Saharan Africa and parts of Asia and Latin America. The events of the Katrina disaster proved (at least for me) that capitalism failed even in its 'greatest jewel' - the USA.

As a person who fought the right-wing military dictatorship in my own country (and I was a supporter of a Roman Catholic group that suffered tremendously in the hands of our 'gorillas') and who have a mind towards the leftist movements (not necessarily communists) I believe that it is time to rethink the farse that capitalism is the only solution or that capitalism=democracy (which is not).

The World Social Forum held every year (until 2004) in Porto Alegre, Brazil showed/presented some solutions that should be evaluated instead of being neglected by the wealthy with the support of the big press (paid by 'you know who') which is only capable to see the folkloric or exotic situations of the Forum - a manner to deride the meeting and to deviate attention from the main agenda. There at the Forum people do not talk only about economy but also about culture, environment, income distribution, etc. but it seems that Davos is still mandatory (of course to condemn millions to a painful death).

Edited by Atkingani

Guigo

~~~~~~

NotAProghead View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Errors & Omissions Team

Joined: October 22 2005
Location: Russia
Status: Offline
Points: 7852

Posted: December 21 2005 at 21:20

abyssyinfinity wrote:

Area, Stormy Six & Venegoni & Co., obviously!
Banco del Mutuo Soccorso in the 70's were near the Italian Socialist Party, they had an album called Garofano Rosso (Red Carnation)...

"Garofano Rosso" is a soundtrack to the same name movie (sorry, someone already wrote about before me).

But I believe many Italian bands shared ideas of political left wing movements.

Edited by NotAProghead

Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)

NotAProghead View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Errors & Omissions Team

Joined: October 22 2005
Location: Russia
Status: Offline
Points: 7852

Posted: December 21 2005 at 21:39

spectral wrote:

Are there any communist prog bands out there? I'm thinking that perhaps Russia or China may have contributed a few bands of this nature.

I don't know about China.

But it's funny to read about communist rock bands in Russia. Rock was rather in spiritual opposition to Soviet regime.

Rock was not banned in former Soviet Union, but everything has been censored. Rock musicians could play in universities, small clubs, but they couldn't make albums, appear on TV and radio. They could not be paid officially for their music. When they were paid for concerts they always had the risk to be arrested for illegal profits. Rock was almost totally in the underground, only few bands (ARSENAL, PESNIARY) could perform officially. Things became a little better only in 1980, after the festival "Tbilisi-80". Then, in 1985, Perestroyka came, but it's another story.

Edited by NotAProghead

Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)

Korova

Forum Senior Member

Joined: November 04 2005
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 189

Posted: December 22 2005 at 12:44

Ivan you are not respectful at all...I'm a communist and I find offensive to be compared to a fascist especially for the fact that I'm italian and here the word fascist, is considered as an offensive word. So you offended me and you continued to do it even when I asked you to stop it. The similarity between the Nazi and the Communist Manifesto is just your opinion that I do not condivde. You can't say is a fact.
I'm a member of Rifondazione Comunista, wich I'm sure you know is the italian communist party, so when I speak about italain political life I know what I'm talking about because I'm very careful about it.
Regarding Sofri he was arrested for murder it's true, but it was considered a political murder organized by Lotta Continua. I know Berlusconi is very good acting the part of the merciful king but don't let him fool yourself. What you don't know is what happens behind the scene because you don't live in this country. I know it because I'm italian.
Regarding the fascism I've done many historical research on fascism, even speaking with many people who have seen the atrocity of it, as my Grandparents for exemple. The memory of the fascism is still alive in Italy.

Anyway I don't like to waste my time speaking with unrespectful people and I want to stop this useless and off-topic private discussion (i'm already accused to be a fascist, I don't want anyone to say I'm a spammer

) so ...

Many italian bands like Area and Banco were left-wing oriented and I think that even the canterbury scene was strongly left-wing oriented (as I recall Wyatt was a decalred communist)
Even Roger waters was a socialist and expressed his toughts againts capitalism in Animals

Edited by Korova

La Speranza della coscienza è forza
La Speranza del sentimento è schiavitù
La Speranza del corpo è malattia
(G.I. Gurdjieff)

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535

Posted: December 22 2005 at 15:09

Read it!!! even communist that have read accept there are similarities in doctrine, read about the Facist People's Army, read about the massive Nationalizations, read about forbidding the profits from other source than work, you have to blind not to notice there are a lot of similarities IN THE DOCTRINE.

By the way, here's a comparison that I found today on the net, it's huge, so I only copied some points that reveal a lot:

	NAZI-FACISM	COMMUNISM
They obey common ideologists: Marx and Hegel.	"The National Socialist movement has one single master: Marxism." - Goebbels¹ "Mussolini likes to affirm that Marx is his spiritual father."² Croce and Gentile, the ideological mentors of Fascism, resort to Hegel in the elaboration of Fascism.	"We are Communists, disciples of Marx and Engels."⁷ The Marxist affiliation of Communism is evident. Marx for his part drew his dialetics from Hegel.
Both have an atheistic doctrine.	"We want no other god than Germany" - Hitler³	"God is the personal enemy of the Communist society." - Lenin⁸
Both have a dialectical doctrine.	"Struggle is the origin of all things, because life is full of contrast." - Mussolini⁴	"The law of contradiction, which is inherent to all things, to all phenomena, is the fundamental law of dialectical materialism." - Mao Tse Tung⁹
Both have an evolutionist doctrine. NOTE: I would say determinist more than evolutionist	"We know that there is no definitive state, that there is nothing durable, that there is only a perpetual revolution." - Rauschning⁵	"There is nothing definitive, absolute, or sacred. The only thing that exists is the uninterrupted process of the future and the transitory." - Engels
Both have a revolutionary doctrine.	"The program of the conception of the world has the sense of a declaration of war against the order of things which exist, against the state of things which exist, in a word, against the structure of the world which presently exists." - Hitler⁶	"Everything which exists must die." - Engels. NOTE: This quote is terrible, but it's obvious that Marxism is revolutionary, for example: Power comes from the barrel of the gun ....Mao Tse Tung.

¹Goebbels, Kampf um Berlin, page 19.
²Mussolini y el Fascismo," in Que sais je. (in Spanish), page 31.
³Bayrischer Kurier, May 25, 1923.
⁴Mussolini, "Le Fascisme," in Discursos al Politeoma Rosetti de Trieste, 9-20-1920, Ed. Denoel et Steele, Paris.
⁵Rauschning, Hitler Said to Me, 1937.
⁶Hitler, Mein Kampf, page 508.
⁷Thorez, M., Discurso del 28 de Octubre de 1937. Ed. Comite Popular de Propaganda.
⁸Ousset, J., "Carta a Gorki (dicembre de 1913)" in Le Marxisme-Leninisme, page 132.
⁹Mao, On the Question of Contradictions.

SOURCE: http://www.tfp.org/what_we_think/fascism.html

For God's sake, Mussolini and Goebbles (Minister of Propaganda and ideologist of Nazism) claim that Mark is their spiritual father, WHAT MORE DO YOU ASK??????

I'm a member of Rifondazione Comunista, wich I'm sure you know is the italian communist party, so when I speak about italain political life I know what I'm talking about because I'm very careful about it.

But you're talkin about a Communist party that plays with democratic rules because they don't have enough power to take control of the nation.

Italy has a more recent memory of the Red Brigades, the criminal murder of Aldo Moro, I even remember that because it was front page in all the newspapers of the world, but you don't remember that.

Italy should be more worried about this than about Facism that will hardly resurrect.

Regarding Sofri he was arrested for murder it's true, but it was considered a political murder organized by Lotta Continua. I know Berlusconi is very good acting the part of the merciful king but don't let him fool yourself. What you don't know is what happens behind the scene because you don't live in this country. I know it because I'm italian.

He was accused BY HIS OWN PARTY PARTNER WHEN BERLUSCONI WAS NOT IN THE POWER, he was arrested 4 years before Berluconi was elected.
Sofri had three trials, even Amnesty International doesn't say he's innocent, they ask the pardon for humanitarian reasons.
Berlusconi has publicly asked for tha pardon, that's a fact, if you doubt of his sincerity that's a subjective opinion from a Communist who has wrote here that he hates Berlusconi.
53% of Italy voted for Berlusconi, so you have to accept that you're in the minority, those are te rules of Democracy.

Regarding the fascism I've done many historical research on fascism, even speaking with many people who have seen the atrocity of it, as my Grandparents for exemple. The memory of the fascism is still alive in Italy.

Yes Facism commited a lot of crimes, but are small in comparisson with what Stalin did in USSR and pale in comparison with the Red Brigades or even worst with the Democratic Campuchea and Pol Pot.
I give you facts, quotes and you give me your grandparents opinion

Anyway I don't like to waste my time speaking with unrespectful people and I want to stop this useless and off-topic private discussion (i'm already accused to be a fascist, I don't want anyone to say I'm a spammer) so ...

You're using the cheepest and worst trick ever, your lack of doctrinarial support and absence of knowledge has been proved so you try to gain the pity of tbe people acting as offended.

Lets be clear, the one that started calling Facists to all the people that are not Communists was APRUSSO casualy Italian as you.

Proving that there are similarities between Facist and Communist doctrines is not offending anybody IT'S A FACT, I never called you a Facist I proved that democracy and even Capitalism are in the opposite sideof the political spectrum than Facism.

Do you know that Juan Domingo Perón was a left oriented President of Argentina and he was clearly Facist? Read some history it's good for you, don't believe in political dogmas, do some research, don't call the rest of the world Facists if you don't want to be proved that your ideology has a lot of similarities with Nazism that's even worst.

I only compared the Communist Manifesto with the Nazi 25 points and the Facist manifesto, and nobody can deny they have incredible similarities.

And even more, the so called Communist Governments acted with equal or even worst cruelty than Facism, why don't you cry for those killed at the end of the Prague Spring, why don't you complain about those Cubans who died in the sea trying to escape from the Communist paradise, why don't you suffer for the people in Congo killed by Che Guevara and his band who went to that country without any right????

Iván

Edited by ivan_2068

Cifaxon

Forum Newbie

Joined: September 17 2005
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 9

Posted: December 23 2005 at 00:20

Iván, I can see your interest and your effort in your research about fascism-communism similiarities. however, I must say that this (mis)information shown in this table can't be in my opinion used in a serious discussion.

first of all, it isn't serious either to base a viewpoint, in this case a comparison between two ideological systems, purely on a small number of unconnected quotes. these quotes are totally taken out of its context, not only its literal "textual context", but also the big structure of thought in which quotes can be understood. I mean, while they are often useful as illustrations and examples, they are meaningless (when not misleading) when used as an argument. the meaning of quotes can be easily be twisted, and one can make people say what they didn't mean and would have never meant.

in addition, just looking at where you took the "comparative table" from just makes me sick. "the american society for the defense of tradition, family and property". well... right-wing, ultraconservative, anti-abortion, anti-gay, pro-reactionary church... anyway, even that doesn't matter, it might be just my prejudice...

what I'm trying to say is that if they in fact read Marx, Engels, Lenin, Mao, and all the people they quote (no, I have not read first-hand nazi-fascist literature, but I did read some Marx/Engels and other marxist theoreticians) it's clear they didn't understand them.

of course Hegel is a strong influence on Marx and Engels. being one of the greatest modern philosophers, and sort of a culmination (in that time) of german/western philosophy, they couldn't not have that influence, just for the fact of being men of their time. it is known that they were followers as well as critics of Hegel, and that there were both left- and right-wing hegelians.

(apart from those quotes, I don't see the marxist affiliation in the fascist movement)

this TFP society claims that both ideologies are atheist. but they don't make their reasons explicit. as for marxism, communism and most left-wing ideologies, they are atheist because they consider "religion the opium of the masses", and God a human creation that later rises upon them and becomes used in benefit of a generally small class of human beings. (I think of JT Aqualung...)

i'd say there are some similiraties in the superficial aspects of both ideologies (and that superficiality is what that table tries to show). but there are greater differences. marxist was born in mid 19th century as a philosophical system which tried to understand capitalism, how it works, and how it could be overcome. fascist movements on the contrary are products of the beginning of 20th century, mainly after world war 1 and 1930 economic crisis. it is in this context of crisis of the bourgeois world where fascism can be understood, as a movement of reactionary romanticism, which longed for a sort of a return to an ideal or idyllic past. in that way, it does dislike the harms of modern capitalism, but the ways to overcome them are radically different from the ones in communist theory (and practice sometimes). to roughly sum up, if fascism and communism are unsatisfied with how capitalism works (only a specific phase of capitalism in the first case), fascism is mainly reactionary while marxism is revolutionary.

and it's revolutionary because marxian materialistic theory of history is centered in social conflict. conflict between social classes, which causes tension which ends in a revolution redistributes the power between classes according to the new material (economic mainly) conditions. wasn't capitalism born defeating mediaeval feudalism and the class that stood for it? how many kings did bourgeois revolutions guillotine? isn't that violent and revolutionary as well?

while on one hand fascism and nazism worked as state capitalism, communism is ideally a state-less society. (of course this was very far from happening in real attempts at communism) in fact, marxism considers state to be an instrument of the dominant classes, and under the capitalism, the "commitee for the common affairs of all the bourgeoisie".

(part "V. Concept of the family" (not quoted) is particularly hilarious.)

one more thing I should say is that Perón was definitely not left-oriented. although he introduced the first labour rights for workers, that wasn't because of his "social ideology". rather he was a populist who used that kind of social reformations to have a mass-movement base, and as a mean to develop a national-industries model of capitalism in opposition to the previous agro-exporting model. he did have fascist tendencies, and banned the communist party (and others) for a while. he is a polemic character in argentinean history, still today loved by half the people and hated by the other half.

anyway... I didn't mean to ramble on with "marxian propaganda", but I felt I had to say something about that light (and ideologically tainted -while apparently denying its ideological bases-) comparison.

Alejandro

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535

Posted: December 23 2005 at 01:45

Cifaxon wrote:

I agree, it was only a visual aid that only sets some superficial points, valid but not trascendental for a serious discussion

After I posted the Nazi and Facist Manifesto and this guy was accusing me of lying I had to make it so simple, that he could understand it.

Yes it matters, I agree with you.

Believe me, the quotes are reliable even when supreficial but indicative of a tendency.

But both movements are strongly influenced by Hegel, because the interpretation of Hegel and any Philosopher may be adapted.

Butthere's something that you can't deny, Capitalism and Democracy have absolutely nothing in common with Facism,n as a fact Facism, Nazism and Communism are against Capitalism (Except State Capitalism of course).

(apart from those quotes, I don't see the marxist affiliation in the fascist movement)

Please, read the points of the Facist Manifesto, it's based in expropiations, confiscation of profit not comming from work, comunalisation, people's army, etc.

You don't mention the 25 points of the Nazi ideology, which I posted (Deleting only the racist and xenophobic crap) which are virtualy identical, just in case you haven't read them, I post it again.:

The 25 point Programme of the NSDAP

1. We demand the union of all Germany in a Greater Germany on the basis of the right of national self-determination.

9. All citizens shall have equal rights and duties.

10. It must be the first duty of every citizen to perform physical or mental work. The activities of the individual must not clash with the general interest, but must proceed within the framework of the community and be for the general good.

We demand therefore:

11. The abolition of incomes unearned by work.

The breaking of the slavery of interest

12. In view of the enormous sacrifices of life and property demanded of a nation by any war, personal enrichment from war must be regarded as a crime against the nation. We demand therefore the ruthless confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations (trusts).

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industrial enterprises.

15. We demand the extensive development of insurance for old age.

16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a healthy middle class, the immediate communalizing of big department stores, and their lease at a cheap rate to small traders, and that the utmost consideration shall be shown to all small traders in the placing of State and municiple orders.

17. We demand a land reform suitable to our national requirements, the passing of a law for the expropriation of land for communal purposes without compensation; the abolition of ground rent, and the prohibition of all speculation in land. *

18. We demand the ruthless prosecution of those whose activities are injurious to the common interest. Common criminals, usurers, profiteers, etc., must be punished with death, whatever their creed or race.

20. The State must consider a thorough reconstruction of our national system of education (with the aim of opening up to every able and hard-working German the possibility of higher education and of thus obtaining advancement). The curricula of all educational establishments must be brought into line with the requirements of practical life. The aim of the school must be to give the pupil, beginning with the first sign of intelligence, a grasp of the nation of the State (through the study of civic affairs). We demand the education of gifted children of poor parents, whatever their class or occupation, at the expense of the State.

21. The State must ensure that the nation's health standards are raised by protecting mothers and infants, by prohibiting child labor, by promoting physical strength through legislation providing for compulsory gymnastics and sports, and by the extensive support of clubs engaged in the physical training of youth.

22. We demand the abolition of the mercenary army and the foundation of a people's army.

23. We demand legal warfare on deliberate political mendacity and its dissemination in the press. To facilitate the creation of a German national press we demand:

The publishing of papers which are not conducive to the national welfare must be forbidden. We demand the legal prosecution of all those tendencies in art and literature which corrupt our national life, and the suppression of cultural events which violate this demand.

25. To put the whole of this programme into effect, we demand the creation of a strong central state power for the Reich; the unconditional authority of the political central Parliament over the entire Reich and its organizations; and the formation of Corporations based on estate and occupation for the purpose of carrying out the general legislation passed by the Reich in the various German states.

The leaders of the Party promise to work ruthlessly -- if need be to sacrifice their very lives -- to translate this programme into action.

Mein Kampf - Adolf Hitler

I don't believe Marx was a Facist of course, but I'm sure that Facism has a Marxist fundament which is evident after reading this platform.

Of course TFP's opinion is not reliable because they only scratch the surface, but there are many other interesting articles and books that you can read like:

Kolakowski and the Anatomy of Totalitarianism (Leszek Kolakowski was cathedratic at McGill, Yale, the University of Chicago (for more than a decade he was part of the Committee on Social Thought), and Oxford, recently dead. Throughout the 1980s, he aided and the Solidarity movement. I believe you can consider ghis opinion reliable.

Martín Malía (Expert on Russian History from the University of Berkley) article in http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2751/is_2002_Fall /ai_92042422#continue You can find his biography in http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/11/19_malia .shtml Also reliable I believe.

Hannah Arendt's book The Origins of Totalitarianism

All of them mention the clear similarities between Facism, Nazism and Communism or Marxism, and all of the are reliable.

Some of them clearly draw a paralellism between Stalinism and Nazism.

We're not talking about when each one of the systems was elaborated in theory, but mostly when both systems where in practice, the USSR was created in 1922, the same year year of Mussolini's march.

Remember that the platforms of Mussolini in 1922, was against the power of Catholic Church and Oligarchy,

it is in this context of crisis of the bourgeois world where fascism can be understood, as a movement of reactionary romanticism, which longed for a sort of a return to an ideal or idyllic past. in that way, it does dislike the harms of modern capitalism, but the ways to overcome them are radically different from the ones in communist theory (and practice sometimes). to roughly sum up, if fascism and communism are unsatisfied with how capitalism works (only a specific phase of capitalism in the first case), fascism is mainly reactionary while marxism is revolutionary.

The ways are different in theory, because Marxism is essentially more violent in theoiory,. but in the practice Governments of both tendencies have worked in the same way.

There is even Perón as an example, a leftist, marxist, facist.

(part "V. Concept of the family" (not quoted) is particularly hilarious.)

That's why Ididn't lost my time and your's posting this crap, but the resy of the table give an idea for people who are not willing to read lenghty books or articles, which obviously is not your case.

one more thing I should say is that Perón was definitely not left-oriented. although he introduced the first labour rights for workers, that wasn't because of his "social ideology". rather he was a populist who used that kind of social reformations to have a mass-movement base, and as a mean to develop a national-industries model of capitalism in opposition to the previous agro-exporting model. he did have fascist tendencies, and banned the communist party (and others) for a while The Communists in Cuba banned all the democratic parties that supported them as well as in ISSR and almost every "Communist" country. he is a polemic character in argentinean history, still today loved by half the people and hated by the other half.

Juan Domingo Perón is described by most History experts (From both sides) as left oriented with Marxist tendencies, but only a few mention his Facist symphaties

He reached power with the the massive support of the communist CGT, not even the CGT1 (Moderate Socialist) but also from the radical Communist CGT2, with the support of both factions and even before being Presifdent he became the head of The National Department of Labor in 1944, so don't tell me he didn't had left tendencies.

He probably changed during his term, but his background is Marxist.

Obviously both movements have different perspectives of everything, but the philosphical fundament of the three is very similar in many points.

Alejandro

Iván

Edited by ivan_2068